E-Boats v PT Boats

[jscott]

Was just doing some random thinking this morning after watching two of my favorite war movies. PT 109 and They Were Exspendable. Was curious to what everyone thought on the matter of who had the better patrol boat? I know the Es were better armed but that necessarily isnt always a good thing if one knew how to get around it by better tatics and such.

[Beershark]

You'll hate me for saying it because I am unable to back up my remarks with any technical information, but generally PT boats were not highly regarded and were thought to be pretty useless for work outside the relatively calmer waters and clement weather conditions of the Pacific.
I say this because my father (now dead) served in a Royal Navy Torpedo Boat flotilla during WW2, and being a pre-war small boat yard owner was asked by both Fairmile and Vosper-Thornycroft to work for them at the end of the war. Apparently, both these yards had formed a panel of experts at the request of the U.S.N. and this group were sent to a number of boat yards in the USA just after the war in order to give advice on how to build fast, stable and rugged torpedo boats. I myself as a very small child remember living in both San Diego on the West coast and Groton on the East coast during the 2 or 3 years my old man acted as consultant to a number of yards in the US....I can only hope that a better PT boat for the USN came out of it. As for the "E" boat, well that was so much different to even the Royal Navy's gun and torpedo boats ( of which a vast range of types existed ) that it just could not be compared to PT boats ; suffice it to say the the German boats were much bigger and heavier than the British craft, as well as much more heavily armed, never mind the fact that they were also fearfully fast. All in all, I'd have to say that the "E"'s would make mincemeat of the PT's ; they certainly often did of our MGB's and MTB's !!
Incidentally, when I work out how to post a photo on this site, I shall post in a photo of me as a three year sat on the lap of a famous PT boat commander who we often met when on the East coast.........J.F.K., no less !

Beershark

[PipsPriller]

The Schnellboat was not only more heavily armed than the early MTB, MGB and PT boats, but was a far more seaworthy thanhtem as well. It was only eith the advent of the heavily armed Fairmiles that Coastal Forces had a boat as heavily armed as the Schnellboat.

The saving grace for the Coastal Forces command in their battles with the Schnellboats was that there were relatively few of them in action, and they were almost always outnumberd by British forces. Tactically too each force operated under different goals. The Germans saw their main purpose to sink British shipping, not MTB's. The British on the other hand created the MGB for the sole purpose of hunting done and sinking Schnellboats. Consequently the Germans used their speed and hitting power to stike coastal convoys and retire, or avoid action altogether if faced by superior British forces. The British always seeked action.

[Beershark]

Too right, the Royal Navy Coastal Forces always did seek action, and with this in mind often sought targets on both land and sea. I remember my Old Man telling me just how much his crew loved using their Oerlikons and Bofors to blow up gasometers ! They made such perfectly spectacular explosions and the collateral damage was VAST ! Trains were another favourite, but were hard to ambush, and, of course, could only be found where the track ran close to the coast. Mind you, trains weren't always the easy meat that was hoped for,since he also told me of bad time they had once when on one of the ambushes that his flotilla often set-up on German munitions or troop trains. One time when they were laying in wait on the blind side of a sandy promontory expecting a regular Friday evening troop train taking soldiers for a weekend's leave in Paris, they heard the train and saw it's smoke so surged around the promontory only to find an armoured train parked and waiting for them. Luckily the boats were so close to the shoreline that the bigger guns on the train couldn't depress enough to line-up on them, but the boats were certainly well chopped up by an awful lot of small arms and M.G. fire before they made their getaway ! My Old Man actually stalled his boat by opening up all three throttles too vigorously, but for some reason the Jerries concentrated on the boats departing at high speed. That gave his Bosun time enough to kick in the smoke screen and they eventually scootered away under that !
Beershark
Beershar

[Dasbootz]

Personally, i feel that the E-Boats (or better known as the Enemy-Boat to the Brits) are better built, if not superior, than the PTs used by the USN or the MTBs that RN had or fielded in service (Note: both PTs & MTBs were gasoline engined). Part of this reason being that the E-Boats that RN encountered had heavier armaments like a bristle of 12+ numbers of 20-30mm flak cannons, armour plating (yes, the E-Boats were armoured) and slick, clean lines coupled with very high performance diesel engines that gave them top speed in excess of 40knots sustained over vast distance.

BTW, here's an interesting dig on the Kriegsmarine's E-Boat i found on wikipedia, it has something to do with D-day, the "Tallboy" bunker-buster bomb and the RAF 617 "Dambuster" Sqn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallboy_bomb

Look out for this line:
E-boat pens at Le Havre and Boulogne – On 14 June 1944 as part of the first massive RAF daylight raid since the end of May 1943, 22 Lancasters of 617 Squadron attack the concrete covered E-boat pens just before the first wave bombed. Several hits were scored on the pens and one bomb penetrated the roof[6]. The E-boat pens at Boulogne were attacked the next day. The E-boats were targeted to prevent them attacking the Normandy invasion force.
U-boat pens at Brest etc. - on 5 August 1944, 15 Lancasters of No. 617 Squadron attacked the U-boat pens at Brest and scored 6 direct hits with Tallboys penetrating the concrete roofs. 1 Lancaster shot down by flak. Subsequent attempts to reinforce other sites with even thicker concrete diverted resources from other projects.[7]


Cheers~![/u]

[Beershark]

I entirely agree with you about the superiority of E boats in terms of speed, armour and armaments, but then they were massive craft compared to Allied small fighting vessels, so could carry all that extra weight without which, clearly, the Germans felt unable to go to sea ! I often spoke to my father about this,and be in no doubt, the schnell boats were a worry to British Coastal forces, but they had virtually no manouvreability compared to Allied boats and also had a much greater draft. This meant the Royal Navy gun and torpedo boats could catch the E's napping by coming up fast over sandbanks, fire off a brace of tinfish and then, turning on a sixpence, scoot away back over the banks, knowing that (assuming any German boats survived the torpedo attack in the first place ! ) none could follow.
Look, me old matey, we (the Brits ) have been wiping the noses of the French, the Dutch and the Spanish Navies for half a millenium in the narrow coastal waters of the English Channel ( and pretty much everywhere else ! ), you don't think that we'd let a few big, heavy and over the top German E boats give us any sleepless nights do you ! Bring 'em on !
Beershark.
"Lengthen your stride by 10% and save nearly 5% of crawling insects ! "

[ptdockyard]

Here is a little summary I wrote on WW2 coastal forces.

http://ptdockyard.tripod.com/id8.html

Dave

[Beershark]

Nice one,Dave. I have always been disappointed to see how little stuff there was on Coastal Forces on the WWW. You site is making up for that.
Cheers,
Beershark

[Troy Tempest]

S-boat with 1x 3.7cm, 1x quad 20mm, superior armour and speed vs PT boat with 2x .50 cals.....no contest!

Troy

[Tiornu]

I don't know too many PTs that went into battle with just two machine guns, but the point stands that the S boat dominates.

[phylo_roadking]

Just as an aside here - the German types, usually grouped in public consciousness as E-Boats - were scaled down coastal patrol craft, ideally performing the duties and roles that the RN intended for their slower "sloops" of the period. So being "mini" capital ship are hard-hitters in themselves. A sort of "pocket battleship" of coastal craft....and never intended for the Channel after all but for the BALTIC! To match Soviet similar-class "torpedo boats".

The RN's attempts at up-gunned MGBs - a class match - and the like to combat them were an unmitigated failure....in the Channel. In the Narrow Sea "fast lil'uns" ruled. But the bigger MGBs excelled elsewhere like the Med.

[Tiornu]

British craft like the Dog Boats could outgun an S-boat, but there was no comparison in terms of mibility

[Troy Tempest]

I don't know too many PTs that went into battle with just two machine guns, but the point stands that the S boat dominates.

How about the PT-73!

Troy

[Tiornu]

I believe she had two twin mounts and one scenery-eating Tim Conway.

[Troy Tempest]

And a secret Japanese chef!

Troy