Peace between Axis and Allies

[Shmeiker]

to pzrmeyer2

Concerning number of Germans in major cities of Pomorze - well, clearly you have not understood what I wrote. There is no question that Germans dominated towns you mentioned. And no doubts surrounding population in villages was in majority non-German (usually Polish). And here comes the trick - how do you make plebiscite to accomodate it? As I wrote - taking Pomarania en gross would lead to giving it to Poland. However considering that town population constituted majority of industry, culture and played a decisive role in determining the general "picture" of the region, it would no doubt be German.

The same in Ukraine, where towns were populated by Poles, and villages by Ucrainians, Belarussian, Armenians, Tatars and others.

Everything breaks down to the method you choose to make this plebiscite. Either way somebody will be treated unjustly (or Germans forced to be in Poland, or Poles forced to be in Germany).

You could take "a third way" and divide plebiscite areas to become more flexible (method used in Silesia) - it led to situations when enclaves of Poles and Germans were formed in alien territory - what to do with them?

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About plebiscites in Silesia and your voice about Katowice - clearly you do not know too much about those plebiscites, and just have an attitude "I think it should be like I think". If you find it interesting I encourage you to read more about them, and then speak. And for your general information - Germans were cheating like hell during those plebiscites. And the reason why they lost so many of them were 2:
- in some areas they were overwhelmed by Poles, so there was nothing they could do
- in some areas they did not cheat enough

As a hint I can give you the German policy for that time of "free suitcase for every German who decided to travel to Silesia and vote". Find out what it ment.

No doubt, however, that there were many areas where Germans were dominating ethnic group - there they did not have to cheat at all.

Anyway - this is just a side note - the main point was: there was already plebiscite held in Silesia, so why to make another one in 1941?

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Sorry, I do not get your point about Bochemia and Moravia. You, yourself, point out that Czechs constituted a majority in this region. In addition it was historically Czech. Yet you still insist on making a referendum to find out whether this land should be incorporated to Germany? On what ground exactly? Bacause for 100 years or so it was a part of Austro-Hungarian Empire? Let me remind you, that this Empire was NOT Germany.

Even better - i.e. 1/3 of Poland was also a part of that Austro-Hungarian Empire - do you want to extend your idea also to this land? Perhaps you would indulge yourself with follow-up? After all another approx. 1/3 of Poland (including core Polish region of Greater Poland - Wielkopolska) was a part of Prussia; also for approx. 100 years. Perhaps you would call for referendum on this land as well ?

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Last but not least - "small stripe of 1 km width" issue and your question of "Why should the Germans have to lose WestPreussen to give the Poles sea access?"

As I wrote, no country would accept any exterritorial "stripe" of any kind. Imagine what would Canadians say if US asked for such a "stripe" to Alaska? Does it sound like absurd? Well, the sound was exactly the same to Poles when they heard German demand.


Now to second part - Western and Central Pomerania was Polish, because majority of people living there were Polish. Only after this first and foremost point came the others: Germany lost WWI and Poland, to make feasible counterbalance to Germany, should have access to the sea.

[Pirx]

see the results in towns like Kattowitz

This is wrong example for you. In Katowice, Chorzow and Rybnik won Poles, in Gleiwitz, Olesno, Zabrze, Beuthen won Germans.
Finaly for Germans votes 59% for Poles 41% .
First proposition how to divide Upper Silesia (by Brits) was 76% land for Germany, 24% for Poland. Poles disagree so won French proposition. Germans got 67% of plebiscite area, Poles 33%.

About connection between Germany and East Prussia look here
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18665

"Corridor" area was anected by Prussian kingdom in 1772, to this time this land belongs to Poland without period 1309-1455. Poles and another slavic group "Kashebes" was all the time majority so to Hitler times even Germans agreed that it was Polish territory.

[pzrmeyer2]

About plebiscites in Silesia and your voice about Katowice - clearly you do not know too much about those plebiscites, and just have an attitude "I think it should be like I think". If you find it interesting I encourage you to read more about them, and then speak. And for your general information - Germans were cheating like hell during those plebiscites. And the reason why they lost so many of them were 2:
- in some areas they were overwhelmed by Poles, so there was nothing they could do
- in some areas they did not cheat enough

And no doubts surrounding population in villages was in majority non-German (usually Polish

Please, please. Is there anyone else who can support this with some facts besides some revisionist Polish nationalists? Show me some numbers where Pommern had more Poles than Germans before WW2. What are you using? 1946 numbers? The cities had more people than the countryside. The countryside was owned and managed by the Junkers. Maybe some of their farm workers were oles. So what? Doesn't give them entitlement to what were German lands. But of course, you'll argue that Frankfurt /Oder is really Slubice and Stettin really Szezcin, right? Why not make a push for Lubeck and Leipzig too?

[Shmeiker]

He he, finally you came up with plebiscite method that would favour Germans - one could expect it. I see you claim that voting rights should be given only to land-owners. Please, explain, why people living in some area for hundreds of years, and not owning any land only due to germanization methods that deprived them from that land-ownership, should be also deprived from right to vote whether they would prefer to live in one country or the other? I would eagerly listen you your answer to that question. [if you happen not to know - Poles were forbidden to build a house in Prussia, no matter that they and their an ancestors were living there for centuries - this is 1 of germanization methods used to deprive them from their land. They could build a house only under condition they would swore to be Germans.]

As for Szczecin - please review history of this town, and then speak. For your information: it was established by some Slavic tribe (not Poles, because that time there was no Poland at all), and taken over by Poland not later then in 985, year when ruler of Poland (Mieszko I) mentioned it in a letter to Pope in Rome, as of being in his possession. The name of that town was Szczecin from the very beginning - the fact, that Germans were (and still usually are) unable to pronounce it so they started calling it Stettin, does not matter too much. Furthermore, Szczecin remained as a part of Poland for hundreds of years, then it was taken over by the Danish, then by Swedish, and finally got under Prussian controll at 1720. If you claim that this is a German town, I can very well say that it is Polish, Slavic, Swedish or Danish. Polish in particular for 2 reasons:

1. Now it is inhabited by Poles
2. For most of its history it was Polish

We could go on and on with Polish towns that are considered by Germans as German - most prominent of them is Gdansk (ger. Danzig), which was established by mentioned Polish price Mieszko). The other could be Opole in Silesia. This, however, is not a main topic of this forum, so let's skip it.

THE MAIN QUESTION, THAT YOU COMFORTABLY SKIPPED WAS: why to make plebiscite in Silesia, when it was already done before?

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As for ethnic breakdown of Pomerania in 1918 at latest, I am still looking for data - in the meantime if you are so sure about German majority in that area, please show me data proving it. I am certain that person who is so convinced about it has some proves for it at hand.

[pzrmeyer2]

Look man, I was just trying to come up with an equitable distribution in a fantasy setting. Obviously for both of us, a true population analysis is hard to find. I acknowledge that the regions in question have had a mixed history over the ages. Indeed, if you look at pre-war Silesia for instance, you'll see that western (lower) is overwhelmingly German, while eastern is much more mixed, and predominately Polish in many areas.

I also think it is important to note when laying national claim to an area, factors such as gross population, industrialization, build-up, etc are important. To say that Stettin/Szezcin is Polish because 4000 Poles built huts there in 900 AD completely disregards that since 1500 or so, the overwhelming source for the build-up, industrialization, and modernization of the city came from its large German population. We're talking several hundred thousand people here. I don't believe San Diego or Los Angeles is rightfully Mexican because the mey had Catholic missions there. It is the Americans who made those cities what they are. Same as it is with Pomerania/Silesia.

To your point, Obviously, with the expulsion of nearly all its inhabitants, and replacement by eastern Poles in 1945, the city is now Polish.

A German revanchist would have a tough time explaining what to do with the current population if "justice" was to be done. I think the only way we'll see a change is through another war or by the Germans buying it all back.



Lets not go round and round here. I acknowledge your points and arguements. I AM aware of the mixed history, and I'm not trying to be unfair the Poles.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

What do you think would be a fair treaty? The situation is just before the invasion of russia.

I think this :

Germany receives the provinces of :

West Prussia (Danzig Province, Bromberg Province, Posen Province)
Alsace-Lorraine (Metz-Strasbourg-Mulhouse)
Luxemburg
Danish Schleswig

Please note :

From what I know the Germans had claims/owned these areas from at least 1836 :

Luxemburg : 1836
Alsace Lorraine : 1836
Danish Schleswig : 1836
West Prussia : Owned ever since 1836.

Do you think the germans could set up protectorates? Puppets? Dominions? Buffer States? War Indemnities? Disarmament?

hmm, I think overall peace treaty between Germany and Britain as the NS governemnt wanted it was normal peace with Britain, if Britain stays outta Europe...... and its going to be more complicated, with all the Free French, Vichy, and stuff. And perhaps, the NS governemnt might secretly demand that Britain contribute to the coming battle against Bolshevism..... not sure, but just my 2 cents.

helmut

[Shmeiker]

to pzrmeyer2

I back up your last post. My opinion is very similar.

What I was trying to present is that simple solutions, like: "let's make plebiscite and find out what to do" are verified by real life - usually they prove very difficult in fact. Just choosing plebiscite method can make huge difference in results.

As for Szczecin, any other town in a region, and in fact any town in the world that has been conquered and taken away by some other country - I support you in idea that tracking back who had this town before, how long it was in his hands or who actually built it, does not matter too much. What matters is who lives there today. Anyone saying that before the war it was German can be countered by saying that before Germans it was Swedish, but before it was Danish, but before it was Polish, but before it was Slavic, but before some lonely bear was living in a cave just next to it ;o) What actually matters is current population of the city.

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Comming back to the main topic of this tread - such a treaty would be impossible. Brits would not accept it in any other way than restoring German boundries to the state that was before the war. Not because they loved Poland, France, Scandinavia or Balkans so much - because they knew that allowing Germany to have all those lands would lead to only 1 solution: sooner or later Hitler would find the way to subdue also Great Britain. British diplomats were short-sighted for a long time, but in 1941 they could see clearly what was comming.

And for obvobius reasons Germany and Hitler in particular would not agree to withdraw his forces from occupied land. They did not fight for it to losse it just on British demand.

[M.H.]

I think a peaceful solution is just underway.
Today for example they (a german tv station) shows a documentary about the "New Silesians", poles and germans settling there, living and working together. They show examples like the pole who restaurates an old castle or the new german farmer family....
It seems in some generations this problems will will be cleared (with help of the EU)!

[Pirx]

Hi pzrmeyer2 and Shmeiker.
Check this site:
http://www.deutsche-kaiserreich.de/
This is one of reproduction


Red = Germans, Green = Poles and Czechs

This is German site, so i may say it shows German point of view. Very interesting site, however some historical informations had lot of mistakes.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

intresting map there Pirx....

[pzrmeyer2]

Very Interesting Website, Pirx. I think what is shows that if you had responsible, peace-interested, fair governments who agreed to a plebiscite in June 41 (the original date of this thread question), a reasonable solution would have Germany in its 1939 borders, pre-Bohemia-Moravia invasion. Perhaps Plus Danzig & Memel, but without the Polish Corridor. The rest of the Czech lands would have some sort of referendum, union with Slovakia or Germany, independence, etc. Maybe some sort of resolution of German speaking areas not contiguous (big word) with Germany. Maybe a "Czech Corridor" to Brunn/Brno?

Or then again, maybe Germany just invades the USSR, takes over the world, develops the bomb, invades the USA, perfects the V-3 rocket, and sends the Poles, Czechs, Russians, to Mars and its all a moot point.

[Pirx]

Yes this is very interesting website. I can only say that there is many pre WWI maps. But for sure they are showing German Empire point of view. But even there we can see that Gorny Slask / Oberschlesien was mostly populated by Poles. Bohemia and Moravia was cleary Czechs own. No need plebiscits there. Nobody in Czech wants to live in Germany, maybe only Germans from Sudetenland.

[Domen123]

Szczecin was part of Poland, as Shmeiker mentioned, already before 985.

In fact Szczecin became part of Poland around year 970 - together with the rest of Pomerania:

Early expansion of Poland from 940 to 999:

http://postimg.org/image/rr79bdy1r/



Similar maps - early expansion of Poland from 880 to 990:













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As for Pomerania:

Pomerania - at that time just a collection of tribes (no duchy and no state existed there) became part of the Polish state around year 970, conquered by duke Mieszko I (see the map below, which shows the expansion of Poland from 940 to 999). In 972 the battle of Cedynia was fought between Poland and Saxon Eastern March - Poland won, preserving its rules over Pomerania, the border became more or less the Oder River.

Pomeranian duchy was for the first time founded by Polish governors of Pomerania, who became briefly independent from their overlords and declared themselves dukes in 1037. That brief period of independence lasted until 1047. The first duke of Pomerania was Siemomysł (Zemusil in Latin), who was for the first time mentioned by sources in 1046. In 1047 Pomerania was again reunited with the rest of Poland. In 1079 it briefly regained independence again, until 1116 (Eastern Pomerania) - which became directly incorporated to Poland - and 1122 (Western Pomerania) - which continued to exist as separate duchy, but was a vassal state of Poland. Before 1116 Pomerania was one region, there was no division for Eastern and Western part - which came into existence only in 1116. In 1181 the duchy of Pomerania (Western part) became vassal state of Denmark, so Poland lost control over it. The Eastern part - which started to be called Pomerelia (while the name Pomerania was started to be applied only to Western part) was ruled by Polish governors - being part of senioral province of Poland - until 1222. In 1222 Polish governor of Pomerelia declared himself a Duke, and founded a duchy there, declaring independence from the High Duke of Poland (at that time Leszek the White). Pomerelia remained one of many Polish duchies, though. Later Pomerelia became part of the reunited Kingdom of Poland in 1294. But then it was captured from Poland by the Teutonic Order in 1309. It remained under Teutonic rules until 1455, when it rebelled against the Teutonic Order and asked the Polish king to reunite it with the Kingdom of Poland. Finally in 1466 the war came to an end and the Teutonic Order officially recognized the reunification of Pomerelia with Poland. Most of Pomerelia - with the exception of Danzig - was lost by Poland during the First Partition in 1772. Danzig was lost during the Second Partition - in 1793.

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Battle of Cedynia (now Zehden) in 972 was a conflict for influence in Pomerania between Poland and Saxons:

This battle determined the fate of Pomerania for the next 200 years:

http://www.dobroni.pl/foto_news/1_bitwa_pod_cedynia.jpg

[Domen123]

Map below shows location of major Polish tribes in the 8th and the early 9th centuries:

Green colour = heavily forested territories



With English translations:



Around 90% of Poland was covered by forest at that time.

[Domen123]

Here about Polonization of German settlers who came to Poland throughout ages:

http://historum.com/european-history/57 ... tcount=505