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This is exactly what I did. I presented the Russian view on this events first and I then showed you the German view (Tieke)jhalcli wrote:In order to evaluate the performance of a unit, one must be careful to present both sides of the picture. A balanced approach must be taken.
As you said the fact is 9 SS Division and Panzerverband Friebe failed in their mission to relieve Tarnopol and don't look for excuses. Period. Germans like to explain their failures and defeats by the "bad wheather", "terrible muddy or winter terrain", "impossible missions", "supplies", "great numerical superiority of the Red hordes" etc.jhalcli wrote:The fact is 9 SS Division and Panzerverband Friebe failed in their mission to relieve Tarnopol. But other factors such as poor weather, supplies, and the strength of the defense as well as strength of the unit are factors to consider when judging German performance in this battle. Was the assigned mission impossible due to these other factors?.
And what? Did they salvage the "Tarnopol Fortress" ?jhalcli wrote: In spite of these problems, 9 SS and Panzerverband Friebe pushed to within 11 km of Tarnopol. This was roughly half way to their objective.?.
Let's be candid. According to Tieke the relief attack had cost 9 SS Panzerdivision and Panzerverband Friebe 1200 dead and wounded 18 panzers (3 Tigers, 4 Panthers and 11 Pz-IV) and 24 units of StuG.. The Tarnopol defenders, who had, on November 3 1944, numbered 94 officers, 677 non-coms and 3592 enlisted men, had melted down by April 16th to approximately 1500 men, and only 55 reached the German lines. Out of three groups that had broken out of Zagrobela, all of the officers were killed.jhalcli wrote:The timeframe for the final relief attack was 11 Apr to 16 Apr 1944. It appears a Guard Tank Corps (with extra attached armor) reinforced the existing defenders to stop the German relief attempt. Buchner in Ostfront 1944 says that the Germans lost 18 tanks and 1200 casualties in the relief attempt. Tieke states the same...?.
Do you want me to believe this BS? Would it be to much to ask for confirmation of the loss figures and also the number of Russian tanks damaged but not destroyed? Perhaps it should be noted that raw claims were reduced by 50% for collation purposes so is this 74+ figure the raw claim or the adjusted one?jhalcli wrote:On 17 Apr, 48 Panzer Korps reported that in the last 4 days fighting 74 Russian tanks, 24 guns, and 26 Pak (antitank guns) were destroyed or captured. Their Panzerlage states that 48 Pz Korps had 6 StuG, 18 Pz IV, 20 Panther, 6 Tiger. These were taken from Pz Armee 4 Kriegstagebuch. So the ratio was 4 Russians tanks destroyed for every German tank if only the 13-16 Apr are considered.
Just as a mean of comparison, the losses of the 10.SS for the" The losses in the (9.SS)division were significant. In three days, 1,383 men were lost. Only 53 of the 4,000 surrounded Germans succeded in breaking out of Tarnopol through the Russian positions."
Michate, I was re-reading the Radzievsky book and found an interesting document signed by the Commanding General of the Soviet First Ukrainian Front Marshal Konev on May 29th 1944 summarizing the combat experience of the Heavy Guards Tank Regiments equipped with JS-2 (JS-122) tanks and Heavy Guards Self-Propelled Regiments equipped with JSU-152 SP guns. This document shed light on the Soviet tank forces involved in the combats in the area of Tarnopol and I hope will be interesting for you.Michate wrote:it is indeed my hope, too, that someone will provide some good material on the Soviet forces, their strength and losses etc., in that particular battle.
Unfortunately noone has done so until now, so for this question basically we are left with unsubstantiated figures from claims of the German forces.