I've examined a preserved example of the 21 cm Mrs 18 quite recently and some questions came to my mind...
First, the rear support plate is adjustable in height, marked for 3 positions - Fahrstellung, Feuerstellung 1 (lower) and 2 (upper). Why were there two fire positions of the carriage? The only guess I have is that the upper position of the plate (i.e. with the rear end of the carriage in its lowermost position) was used for shooting with upper elevation angles, as it increased amount of recoil received by the lower recoil brake, mounted inside the carriage. But is it true?
And the second question is - how was on earth the carriage mounted on the limber?! A basic calculation shows, that load some 5000 kg or more had to be lifted well over 1 meter above the surface to put the tail of the carriage on the limber... How did they do it - there is no visible winch or any other jack...
Kind regards
Grzesiu
21 cm Moerser 18 - a couple of silly questions
Moderator: sniper1shot
regarding your second question, the gun was driven on top of the tracks, then two multiaxle boogies aproached the gun from both ends and lowered a couple arms each, that in turn had a couple hydraulic jacks each.
the ends of these arms were hooked to the gun, and then the jacks extended under them until the gun was level and the second set of hooksabout mid-arm length could be pinned on for travel.
regards
Xavier
the ends of these arms were hooked to the gun, and then the jacks extended under them until the gun was level and the second set of hooksabout mid-arm length could be pinned on for travel.
regards
Xavier
"Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit"
Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill:
Cicero
Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill:
Cicero
Thanks for the reply. But do we both think about the same problem?
Here are two illustrations:
The rear end of the carriage rests on a single axle limber or boogie - which is pretty high and there had to be a simple way of lifting the approx. 14 t heavy carriage high enough to mount in on the limber - right in the field. But how was it done?
The rear support plate from my 1st question is also visible in the pictures, with two powerful spring equlibrators, allowing it apparently to be adjusted under gun's full weight.
Regards
Grzesio
Here are two illustrations:
The rear end of the carriage rests on a single axle limber or boogie - which is pretty high and there had to be a simple way of lifting the approx. 14 t heavy carriage high enough to mount in on the limber - right in the field. But how was it done?
The rear support plate from my 1st question is also visible in the pictures, with two powerful spring equlibrators, allowing it apparently to be adjusted under gun's full weight.
Regards
Grzesio
sorry, wrong gun (my mistake)
I have seen this gun transported in two pieces, with the barrel carried ina special transport, and the craddle/ in a separate position, and I think it has some kind of screw jacks in the plate at the end of the legs.
ADDENDUM: PHOTOS: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... mM18-R.htm
Xavier
I have seen this gun transported in two pieces, with the barrel carried ina special transport, and the craddle/ in a separate position, and I think it has some kind of screw jacks in the plate at the end of the legs.
ADDENDUM: PHOTOS: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... mM18-R.htm
Xavier
Last edited by xavier on Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit"
Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill:
Cicero
Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill:
Cicero
- derGespenst
- Associate
- Posts: 776
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:12 am
- Location: New York City
Xavier, thanks for the photos, nice ones! :)
derGespenst - can you tell me something more about the 17 cm Haubitze, please? I think, the only guns built with this carriage - a very distinctive carriage with a double recoil system and central support plate allowing 360 deg. traverse (missing in my photos) - were the 17 cm Kanone 18 in Mörserlafette and 21 cm Mörser 18, while very few 15 cm SK C/28 in Mrs Laf and 15 cm K 16 in Mrs Laf were a transitional solution prior to introduction of the 17 cm K 18 in Mrs Laf. There was also the huge 24 cm K 38 using a strongly modified Mörserlafette - but was there something more I have no idea about?
And yes, the calibre of the gun in the pictures IS 21 cm.
Kind regards
Grzesio
derGespenst - can you tell me something more about the 17 cm Haubitze, please? I think, the only guns built with this carriage - a very distinctive carriage with a double recoil system and central support plate allowing 360 deg. traverse (missing in my photos) - were the 17 cm Kanone 18 in Mörserlafette and 21 cm Mörser 18, while very few 15 cm SK C/28 in Mrs Laf and 15 cm K 16 in Mrs Laf were a transitional solution prior to introduction of the 17 cm K 18 in Mrs Laf. There was also the huge 24 cm K 38 using a strongly modified Mörserlafette - but was there something more I have no idea about?
And yes, the calibre of the gun in the pictures IS 21 cm.
Kind regards
Grzesio
Re: 21 cm Moerser 18 - a couple of silly questions
Hello to all ; something more..................
The 21 cm Mörser 18 in action in Poland 1939.
Sources: http://odkrywca.pl/wrzesien-1939-zdjeci ... 45450.html
http://odkrywca.pl/wrzesien-1939-zdjeci ... 50461.html
Cheers. Raúl M .
The 21 cm Mörser 18 in action in Poland 1939.
Sources: http://odkrywca.pl/wrzesien-1939-zdjeci ... 45450.html
http://odkrywca.pl/wrzesien-1939-zdjeci ... 50461.html
Cheers. Raúl M .
- Attachments
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- Heavy howitzer 21 cm Mörser 18 at the Square of Budsin.....................
- image004.jpg (27.33 KiB) Viewed 10313 times
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- In the foreground the barrel of a 21 cm Mörser 18 and behind its carriage...............
- image006.jpg (29.12 KiB) Viewed 10313 times
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
-
- Contributor
- Posts: 224
- Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 9:23 am
- Location: Westbury, Wiltshire, UK.
Re:
derGespenst wrote:Your photos do not match your description. That is not a 21cm Mörser; it is, at most, a 17cm Haubitze - a very different beast altogether.
The only difference between the 17cm and the 21 cm was the barrel/breech, the carriages were identical and therefore the method of towing was also.
Grzesio, did you try Google ?
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=21+cm ... 24&bih=651
Alan
Re: 21 cm Moerser 18 - a couple of silly questions
Hello to all ; after a debate on another forum ..... and looking right the first photo I think could well be more than a 15 cm K 18, another opinion?. TIA. Cheers. Raul M .
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
Re: 21 cm Moerser 18 - a couple of silly questions
Hello to all ; something more..................
The 21 cm Mörser 18 in action.
The 210 mm Mortar 18 developed and built by Krupp replaced the obsolete 1916 model from 1939 onwards and was one of the main German army heavy artillery guns as it was used on all fronts in the second world war. Despite being difficult to handle due to its heavy weight of 16.7 tonnes in the firing position and 22.7 tonnes in the travelling position, the long range and heavy firepower of the 210 mm Mortar 18 made it a very effective artillery weapon.
The construction of the weapon consisted of an upper and a lower mount with a double recoil system. The pivot in the platform enabled it to traverse through 360° in the firing position. The elevation of 0° to +70° gave it a maximum range of 16,700 m. The ammunition used was the 210 mm shell 18 (113 kg) or the 210 mm shell 18 concrete (121 kg). A well trained crew could fire one round every 2 minutes. As of April 1, 1940 there were 124 pieces. The cost per unit was of RM 107,000.
Sources: http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/art, ... erz-21cm-m
http://manuals.hobbico.com/rvl/80-3169.pdf
http://photo.qip.ru/users/nickanorus/41 ... ode=xlarge
Cheers. Raúl M .
The 21 cm Mörser 18 in action.
The 210 mm Mortar 18 developed and built by Krupp replaced the obsolete 1916 model from 1939 onwards and was one of the main German army heavy artillery guns as it was used on all fronts in the second world war. Despite being difficult to handle due to its heavy weight of 16.7 tonnes in the firing position and 22.7 tonnes in the travelling position, the long range and heavy firepower of the 210 mm Mortar 18 made it a very effective artillery weapon.
The construction of the weapon consisted of an upper and a lower mount with a double recoil system. The pivot in the platform enabled it to traverse through 360° in the firing position. The elevation of 0° to +70° gave it a maximum range of 16,700 m. The ammunition used was the 210 mm shell 18 (113 kg) or the 210 mm shell 18 concrete (121 kg). A well trained crew could fire one round every 2 minutes. As of April 1, 1940 there were 124 pieces. The cost per unit was of RM 107,000.
Sources: http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/art, ... erz-21cm-m
http://manuals.hobbico.com/rvl/80-3169.pdf
http://photo.qip.ru/users/nickanorus/41 ... ode=xlarge
Cheers. Raúl M .
- Attachments
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- The Carriage trailer, towed by a Sd Kfz 8 (12 ton)..................................
- image034.jpg (59.69 KiB) Viewed 9323 times
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- The barrel......................................
- image035.jpg (46.69 KiB) Viewed 9323 times
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
Re: 21 cm Moerser 18 - a couple of silly questions
Hello to all ; something more..................
The 21 cm Mörser 18 in action during Operation Barbarossa 1941.
On June 1, 1941 the Wehrmacht had 388 pieces of 21 cm forming heavy artillery groups of Mörser 18 with 3 batteries with three pieces each. All of them took part in the first phase of "Operation Barbarossa".
Barrel of one 21 cm Mörser 18 towed by a Sd Kfz 8 of 12 ton heading to Leningrad 1941 ...........................................
Source: http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/art, ... erz-21cm-m
http://photo.qip.ru/users/nickanorus/41 ... ode=xlarge
Cheers. Raúl M .
The 21 cm Mörser 18 in action during Operation Barbarossa 1941.
On June 1, 1941 the Wehrmacht had 388 pieces of 21 cm forming heavy artillery groups of Mörser 18 with 3 batteries with three pieces each. All of them took part in the first phase of "Operation Barbarossa".
Barrel of one 21 cm Mörser 18 towed by a Sd Kfz 8 of 12 ton heading to Leningrad 1941 ...........................................
Source: http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/art, ... erz-21cm-m
http://photo.qip.ru/users/nickanorus/41 ... ode=xlarge
Cheers. Raúl M .
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
Re: 21 cm Moerser 18 - a couple of silly questions
Hello to all ; something more..................
The 21 cm Mörser 18 in action in winter.
The gun and its prime mover in a snowy landscape..............................................
Sources: http://photo.qip.ru/users/nickanorus/41 ... ode=xlarge
Cheers. Raúl M .
Feliz Año Nuevo - Happy New Year - Feliz Ano Novo - Gluckliches Neues Jahr - Bonne Année - Felice Anno Nuovo - Szczęśliwego nowego roku!!!.
The 21 cm Mörser 18 in action in winter.
The gun and its prime mover in a snowy landscape..............................................
Sources: http://photo.qip.ru/users/nickanorus/41 ... ode=xlarge
Cheers. Raúl M .
Feliz Año Nuevo - Happy New Year - Feliz Ano Novo - Gluckliches Neues Jahr - Bonne Année - Felice Anno Nuovo - Szczęśliwego nowego roku!!!.
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
Re: 21 cm Moerser 18 - a couple of silly questions
Hello to all ; something more..................
The 21 cm Mörser 18 in action.
Sources: The Field Artillery Journal. NOVEMBER-DECEMBER, 1940—Vol. 30, No. 6
Cheers. Raúl M .
The 21 cm Mörser 18 in action.
Sources: The Field Artillery Journal. NOVEMBER-DECEMBER, 1940—Vol. 30, No. 6
Cheers. Raúl M .
- Attachments
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- Crewmembers carrying a shell (113 kg HE) of 21 cm..............................
- image035.jpg (29.26 KiB) Viewed 4424 times
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- A shell being loaded into a 21 cm Mörser 18..........................
- image037.jpg (38.7 KiB) Viewed 4424 times
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.