Armoured Stength Army Group Centre Jan'45

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donwhite
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Armoured Stength Army Group Centre Jan'45

Post by donwhite » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:31 am

Most secondary sources give an armoured strength for Army Group Centre (3rd Pz, 4th & 2nd Armies) immediately prior to the Soviet January offensive as somewhere around 700-800 Tanks and assault guns. Having been fortunate enough to see a copy of the Pz Lage & StuG Lage recently for 30/12/44 to 15/01/45 and compiled some rough numbers on a spreadsheet, I'm getting a figue in excess of 1200! This is also ignoring for the time being those independent JPz units that were present + other vehicles listed as being in transit. The only way I can reconcile this large difference to any degree is to assume the popularly quoted figure refers to operationable vehicles only or that some of the units mentioned in the various Lages transferred south at the onset of the Soviet offensive as in fact did 'HG'1 PD & 'BrB' PGD with 'GD' PzK HQ. Brandenberg's armoured components however were not present with the Division in east Prussia and apparently did not join up with it until de-training in Poland having subsequently arrived from a refitting well to the rear. Can anyone enlighten me as to other possible transfers from the East Prussian theatre that may explain this anomaly in numbers?

Cheers

Roger Griffiths
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Post by Roger Griffiths » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:46 am

Yes, I come out with about 800 for PD's, based on 1Jan45 Returns.

East Prussia - 5, 7, 16, 17, 24, GD and HG1.

PR's 190 IV, 26 IV/70, 220 V, 15 VI, 18 Stugs, total 469

PzJgAbtn. 97 IV/70, 28 Stugs and 33 Marder, total 158

Warka Bridgehead - 19 and 25 PD's

PR's 61 IV, 17 IV/70, 59 V, total 137

PzJgAbtn. 3 IV and 42 IV/70,total 45

Regards,

Roger

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Armoured numbers

Post by donwhite » Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm

Thanks Roger,
My rough totals also include assault guns present with the AT Battalions of the infantry Divisions & Assault gun Brigades although with the latter I have not yet definitively tied down which brigade was actually at the front or refitting to the rear or actually with a different theatre entirely as the Lage copy I have seen confusingly (For me) mentions various units with Army Group Vitsula which I understand did not come into being until late Jan to early Feb'45 (the lage dates the audit on units at 30/12/44 & 15/01/45). Therefore some units may have come from Army Group 'A' etc.

Cheers

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Post by Kamen Nevenkin » Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:31 am

The list of the armored divisions and brigades available to the HGr 'Mitte' on the eve of the Soviet offensive (12.01.45):

- 5.PzD (31.12.44): 33 PzIV (32 operational), 47 Pz V (40), 32 JgPzIV/PzIV-70 (25), 6 StuG (6)

- 7.PzD (31.12.44): 28 PzIV (27), 5 Bef PzV (5), 32 Pz V. Furthermore, on 3.01.45 it received 10 PzIV/70 (A) and on 8.01.45 PzJgAbt 42 was shipped from Mielau (East Prussia) to the division with 21 PzIV-70.

- FsPzD 'HG 1' (31.12.44): 4 PzIII (2), 35 PzIV (29 operational), 42 Pz V (33).

- FsPzGD 'HG 2' (5.01.45): 32 StuG III. Furthermore, Korps PzJgAbt 'HG' with 17 StuG (30.12.44) was attached to it.

- 18.PzGD (12.01.45): 44 StuG III

- PzGD 'Grossdeutschland' (30.12.44): 4 PzIV (2), 61 PzV (56), 1 BefPzIII (1), 22 AufklPz 38(t) (16), 19 PzVI (15), StuG 2, StuH 1. Subordinated units: PzAbt (Fkl) 302 - 28 StuG III (26) and StuPzKp 218 z.b.V. - 10 StuPzIV.

- PzGD 'Brandenburg' (8.01.45): 21 StuG IV (PzJgAbt 'BR') and 32 StuG III + 8 StuH (StuGBr 'GD'). The latter units until 16.01.45 were stationed at Mielau and joined the division during the same day.

- StuGBrig 185 (5.01.45): 28 StuG

- StuGBrig 190 (5.01.45): 33 StuG

- StuGBrig 201 (5.01.45): 31 StuG

- StuGBrig 209 (5.01.45): 29 StuG

- StuGBrig 232 (5.01.45): 29 StuG

- StuGBrig 249 (5.01.45): 23 StuG

- StuGBrig 259 (5.01.45): 43 StuG

- StuGBrig 276 (5.01.45): 25 StuG

- StuGBrig 277 (5.01.45): 24 StuG

- StuGBrig 278 (5.01.45): 42 StuG

- StuGBrig 279 (5.01.45): 18 StuG

- StuGBrig 901 (5.01.45): 31 StuG

- StuGBrig 909 (5.01.45): 30 StuG

- Furthermore, on 5.01.45 Guderian reports that there were 28 PzJgKp (in the Inf.Divisions ?) with a total of 301 StuG available in HGr 'Mitte'.

The panzerlage mentioned by you was assembled by 1.02.45, that's why some of AFVs are shown according to the subordination of the units as it was on 1.02.45.

Kamen

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Armoured Numbers

Post by donwhite » Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:47 pm

Kamen,
Thanks for the clarification.

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Post by Michate » Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:52 am

I have a source that mentions 1,346 tanks and assault guns in AG Centre on 6th January 1945.

Kamen, do you have strength figures for the Tiger battalions (e.g. sPz. Abt 502, 505, 507)?

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Post by Kamen Nevenkin » Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:28 pm

Tiger Abt 505 (30.12.44): 37 PzVI (34)

Tiger Abt 507 (30.12.44): 55 PzVI (51)

Tiger Abt 511 (30.12.44): 20 PzVI

Tiger Abt 502 was part of HGr 'Nord' (Kurland)

Regarding the figure mentioned in your post - the things are (a little bit) complicated: some of the units in the immediate rear of the front were part of HGr 'Mitte' while others were OKH reservers. Moreover, on 5 January the forward elements of 20.PzD entrained for Hungary and by the beginning of the Soviet offensive the entire division was already there.

Have a nice weekend

Kamen

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OKH Vs Mitte

Post by donwhite » Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:36 pm

Kamen,
For my own further clarification/understanding, when a reference source (say for example John Erickson's 'The Road to Berlin') mentions an armoured strength figure of Army group Mitte, this figure would possibly refer to units that were assigned directly to the Army Group and under their specific duristiction. Therefore another possible reason for the differrence in strength figures between quoted reference works and the PanzerLage records is the presence of units in the latter that fall under the control of OKH and not Army Group Centre?

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Post by Michate » Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:37 am

Kamen,

thank you very much for the answer.

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Re: Armoured Stength Army Group Centre Jan'45

Post by Kelvin » Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:34 am

Hi, Kamen, do you have combat ready figures on StuG of 10th Panzergrenadier Division and the StuG brigades you mentioned in the post ?

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Re:

Post by Kelvin » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:09 pm

Kamen Nevenkin wrote:The list of the armored divisions and brigades available to the HGr 'Mitte' on the eve of the Soviet offensive (12.01.45):

- 5.PzD (31.12.44): 33 PzIV (32 operational), 47 Pz V (40), 32 JgPzIV/PzIV-70 (25), 6 StuG (6)

- 7.PzD (31.12.44): 28 PzIV (27), 5 Bef PzV (5), 32 Pz V. Furthermore, on 3.01.45 it received 10 PzIV/70 (A) and on 8.01.45 PzJgAbt 42 was shipped from Mielau (East Prussia) to the division with 21 PzIV-70.

- FsPzD 'HG 1' (31.12.44): 4 PzIII (2), 35 PzIV (29 operational), 42 Pz V (33).

- FsPzGD 'HG 2' (5.01.45): 32 StuG III. Furthermore, Korps PzJgAbt 'HG' with 17 StuG (30.12.44) was attached to it.

- 18.PzGD (12.01.45): 44 StuG III

- PzGD 'Grossdeutschland' (30.12.44): 4 PzIV (2), 61 PzV (56), 1 BefPzIII (1), 22 AufklPz 38(t) (16), 19 PzVI (15), StuG 2, StuH 1. Subordinated units: PzAbt (Fkl) 302 - 28 StuG III (26) and StuPzKp 218 z.b.V. - 10 StuPzIV.

- PzGD 'Brandenburg' (8.01.45): 21 StuG IV (PzJgAbt 'BR') and 32 StuG III + 8 StuH (StuGBr 'GD'). The latter units until 16.01.45 were stationed at Mielau and joined the division during the same day.

- StuGBrig 185 (5.01.45): 28 StuG

- StuGBrig 190 (5.01.45): 33 StuG

- StuGBrig 201 (5.01.45): 31 StuG

- StuGBrig 209 (5.01.45): 29 StuG

- StuGBrig 232 (5.01.45): 29 StuG

- StuGBrig 249 (5.01.45): 23 StuG

- StuGBrig 259 (5.01.45): 43 StuG

- StuGBrig 276 (5.01.45): 25 StuG

- StuGBrig 277 (5.01.45): 24 StuG

- StuGBrig 278 (5.01.45): 42 StuG

- StuGBrig 279 (5.01.45): 18 StuG

- StuGBrig 901 (5.01.45): 31 StuG

- StuGBrig 909 (5.01.45): 30 StuG

- Furthermore, on 5.01.45 Guderian reports that there were 28 PzJgKp (in the Inf.Divisions ?) with a total of 301 StuG available in HGr 'Mitte'.

The panzerlage mentioned by you was assembled by 1.02.45, that's why some of AFVs are shown according to the subordination of the units as it was on 1.02.45.

Kamen

Regarding 5. Panzer Division, I find out that it neither received Jadpanzer IV L70 (V) nor Jagdpanzer IV L70 (A), what it received only Jadpanzer IV L48 ( 21 sent from HQ on June 11 1944 and another 21 on July 29 1944), so it received its L70 from other units ? 103. Pz Brigade ? but the latter whether received L70 ?

With regard to 7. Panzer Division, she totally received 21 Jadpanzer IV L70 (V) and 10 Jadpanzer IV L70(A), did the latter unit served in Panzer Regiment 25 rather than Panzerjager Abteilung 42 ? Because 31 TD in a one single PzJg.Abt, I think too many.

I only find out 31 StuG and 2 StuH for 18. PG division in mid January 1945 , ????

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Re: Armoured Stength Army Group Centre Jan'45

Post by Kelvin » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:40 pm

donwhite wrote:Most secondary sources give an armoured strength for Army Group Centre (3rd Pz, 4th & 2nd Armies) immediately prior to the Soviet January offensive as somewhere around 700-800 Tanks and assault guns. Having been fortunate enough to see a copy of the Pz Lage & StuG Lage recently for 30/12/44 to 15/01/45 and compiled some rough numbers on a spreadsheet, I'm getting a figue in excess of 1200! This is also ignoring for the time being those independent JPz units that were present + other vehicles listed as being in transit. The only way I can reconcile this large difference to any degree is to assume the popularly quoted figure refers to operationable vehicles only or that some of the units mentioned in the various Lages transferred south at the onset of the Soviet offensive as in fact did 'HG'1 PD & 'BrB' PGD with 'GD' PzK HQ. Brandenberg's armoured components however were not present with the Division in east Prussia and apparently did not join up with it until de-training in Poland having subsequently arrived from a refitting well to the rear. Can anyone enlighten me as to other possible transfers from the East Prussian theatre that may explain this anomaly in numbers?

Cheers

Apart from SPW and Spahwagen, but includes Pz II, Pz III L60, Pz IV, Panther, Tiger, StuG III, StuG IV, StuH, Jagdpanzer IV Nashorn, Marder III, T-34, Hetzer, Wespe, Hummel and Grille, I get a number of AFV nearly 1,380 operational prior to offensive. Plus nearly 950 x SPW/Pz.Spah.Wg RFA.

Some units like 5.Jager Division had T-34 tanks, 542.Volksgrenadier Division had Pz III L60, 35.Infanterie Division had Marder III 7.62mm.

If we also calulate armored strength of Army Group A, which includes Pz II, Pz III Bef and Beob, Pz IV, Panther, Tiger, StuG III, StuG IV, StuH, Marder II & III, Jagdpanzer IV L48 and L70, Hetzer, Nashorn, Elefant, Wespe, Hummel and Grille, over 1,300 armored vehicles combat ready in this period. Also nearly 950 x SPW/Pz.Spah.Wg RFA.

Both army group panzer strength were nearly up to standard of both Army Group Center and South prior to Kursk Offensive in 1943. From this, German Army was still formidable forces in the very last period of war.

If German high command gave up Kurland Bridgehead which would release nearly 20- 30 Divisions, including three Panzer Divisions and did not send some fresh Panzer divisions like 3. 6.20. Panzer Division and Waffen SS 3. and 5. Panzer Divisions from Army Group Center and 8. Panzer Division from Army Group A in December 1944 plus some reinforcement from the Western Front and Italian battlefield prior to Soviet offensive, perhap German can withstand Soviet offensive for a while and probably hold their offenisve in Poland and East Prussia.

German reinforcement was sent only after the start of Soviet offensive, it was too late. They sent back exhausted 8. and 20. Panzer Divisions from Hungary, 269. and 712.Infanterie Divisions from the West to Army Group A. and sent back 4. Panzer Division, 32. 227.Infanterie Divisions and 31. VolksGrenadier Division immediately from Kurland in January 1945 and 93. and 389.ID in Febuary 1945. But it is too late.

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