Panzer Aufklarung Abteilung 4 in 1945

German unit histories, lineages, OoBs, ToEs, commanders, fieldpost numbers, organization, etc.

Moderator: Tom Houlihan

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Panzer Aufklarung Abteilung 4 in 1945

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:36 pm

Greetings Comrades!

Can some generous soul give me an idea of the TO&E of this unit, a part of the 4th Panzer Division in early 1945?

How many companies would it have had?
What was its official manpower strength?
What types of vehicles would it have been authorized and in what numbers?

I realize this sounds like a tall order, but I really just need a "snapshot" of this unit to help me envision its structure.

Thanks!

Best Regards,
~D, the EviL
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Patron
Posts: 2119
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 3:09 am
Location: Austria
Contact:

Post by Christoph Awender » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:38 am

Hello Commissar

The chart on 1.3.1945 shows

Stab: 2x l.Pz.Fu.Wg., 5x le.SPW, 5x m.SPW
1.(Pz.Sp.) Kp.: 1x le.Pz.Fu.Wg., 22x s.Pz.Sp.Wg., 1x le.Pz.Sp.Wg.
2.Kp.: 1x le.Pz.Fu.Wg., 9x le.SPW, 16x Luchs, 1x m.SPW
3.Kp.: 19x le.SPW
4.Kp.: 19x le.SPW
5.(s) Kp.: 22x m.SPW
Versorgungskompanie

Pz.A.A.4 was equipped with Luchs, 250/9 and 8-Rad.Pz.Sp.Wg. (Tatra-Diesel) (7,5cm-KwK-lang)

9.3.1945
Einsatzbereit/kurze Inst./längere Inst.
Luchs - 8/1/8

14.3.1945:
Luchs - 7/2/-
250/9 - 4/1/4
s.Pz.Sp.Wg. - 11/6/-

\Christoph
Last edited by Christoph Awender on Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:19 pm

Greetings Comrade Christoph! Thanks you very much! :D

I must have this complete for my higher authorities, as this unit has caused us a bit of trouble in Kurland.

Am I right to assume that its approximate strength would be about 1,000 officers and men?

Very Best,
~D, the EviL
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:40 am

Gee, I found book in the attic. The book says that a Panzer Aufklarungs Abt. in 1944 would consist of:

1. A Panzerspahkompanie--equipped with armored reconnaissance units.
2. A Panzeraufklarungskompanie--equipped with Kubelwagens
3. A Panzeraufklarungskompanie--formerly a motorcycle company
4. A Panzeraufklarungskompanie (gep.)--equipped with light APCs
5. A Schwere Panzeraufklarungskompanie--consisting of:
an 80mm mortar platoon (motorized or armored0, a light anti-aircraft platoon (20mm A/A guns) and a light A/A platoon (MG 151 Machine guns on a triple mount for A/A duties).
6. A Schwimm-Panzerspahwagenzug--amphibious reconnaissance platoon
7. A Panzerspahwagen-Werkstattzug--a reconnaissance repair platoon.

Does this structure seem right?

Best,
David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

User avatar
Prit
Contributor
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 9:20 am

Post by Prit » Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:36 am

Christoph/anyone else,

Could you help me decipher this chart?

Image

The two symbols in the bottom right are for armoured car units, with an armoured unit next to them, and then another armoured car unit. I can guess from reading elsewhere that the numbers within the armoured car symbols relate to their firepower (so the extreme right hand one has 75mm guns, then 20mm guns). But I'm nor sure of the other boxes (apart from the division symbol in the top row), nor the significance of the numbers that are beneath each box. Also, there are the three numbers at the top left of the box.

Thanks!

Prit

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:05 pm

Whoa Prit!!! Geesh, that's complicated!!! I hope someone can help read it!

Best,
DCC
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Patron
Posts: 2119
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 3:09 am
Location: Austria
Contact:

Post by Christoph Awender » Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:03 pm

Hello Prit

Thats the sketch where I posted the info above from.

Far right: 1.Kompanie with two Pz.Sp.Wg. platoons. The 7,5cm most probaly Sd.Kfz. 251/9 and the rest are Pz.Sp.Wg. with 2cm cannons.

Then the 2.Kompanie with the armoured symbol for the Luchs and the Pz.Wp.Wg. platoon again with 2cm vehicles.

The 3.Kompanie with light SPW

The 4.Kompanie with ditto

and the 5.Kompanie with a mix of Sd.Kfz.251 vehicles. I would have to look into the original sketch to see all the details of the 5.Kompanie.

Christoph

User avatar
Prit
Contributor
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 9:20 am

Post by Prit » Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:47 pm

Thanks, Christoph!

Can you explain the row of numbers under 5 Kompanie, and the numbers to the left of the chart?

Prit

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Patron
Posts: 2119
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 3:09 am
Location: Austria
Contact:

Post by Christoph Awender » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:15 am

Prit wrote:Thanks, Christoph!

Can you explain the row of numbers under 5 Kompanie, and the numbers to the left of the chart?

Prit
OK that is a little bit tougher :-)

From left to right what I think with the best of my knowledge and what can be deciphered from the document.
Pionierzug with 12 l.M.G.
8x l.M.G.
6x Gr.Wf.
1x s.M.G.
3x 7,5cm Pak
1x 7,5cm Sf.
next I can´t read properly
6x 2cm
3x ? "Dr." maybe means "Drilling"

The small numbers on the left took me long to find out but once I came across a document where they were explained.
Top number means Shortage in man in %
Middle number is ill/wounded up to 6 weeks in %
Total manstrength in %

\Christoph

User avatar
Prit
Contributor
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 9:20 am

Post by Prit » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:50 am

Wonderful! Thanks, Christoph. This unlocks so much information.

Prit

Hans Weber
Enthusiast
Posts: 457
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:48 am

Post by Hans Weber » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:00 pm

Hello

Addenda:

AA 4 never converted to the 1944 Gliederung. Instead its Gliederung was based upon the 43 type standard for the rest of the war. During 1944 it was not pulled out of the front to refresh. This happened only in January 1945.

The rightmost symbol is the schwere (s) Pz Späh Zug (7,5cm). A unit raised only on special order, which was issued in this case. It was equipped with the older Sdkfz 233. Six were issued in September 1943 and they were still around more than a year later. One was in repair at the end of 1944 and it seems that the problem proved to be fatal. Thus only 5 x 233 in March 1945, each with a 7,5cm Kwk and one le MGs. Note that their number is included in the total of 22 s.PSW.


The 1./AA 4 was a Panzerspäh Kompanie. As can be expected, not having converted to the type 1944 Gliederung, it has not become part of the Stabskompanie, neither did it adopt any Sdkfz 234 prior to 45, but instead had to work with a mixture of light and heavy armoured car during the whole year. The standard 1943 type was 6 troops of light four wheelers , 2 x Sdkfz 222 and one 223 (le PSW Fu) per troop and three heavy troops with 1 231 and one 232 (Fu) each, giving the grand total of 18 le PSW and 6 s PSW. At the end of 1944, we still find 4 x 223 (le MG), 5 x 222 (2cm Kwk), 3 s PSW (2cm KwK). The number of 22 s PSW in March is hard to explain. Delivery reports only report the issue of 7 s PSW at the end of January (most probably all calibre 2cm Kwk, so 234/1 at this date). I haven't found any deliveries of sPSW between March 1944 and this date, when one lonely 232 was issued (probably only to compelement the 5 x 231/232 issued in June 1943 and thus bringing the total of sPWS to the 6 allowed for). Imho it is a typo together with the number of le PSW. It should read 13 s PSW (6 older 231/332 and 7 new 234/1) and 4 le PSW, giving the correct total of 17 x 2 KwK.

The 2./AA 4 is special as it was the only Luchs Kompanie together with 2./AA 9 in the Wehrmacht. Of the 24 still with the Abteilung at the end of 1944, albeit more than 50% in the repair facilities, losses sustained had to be replaced by the more standard 250/9 by March 1945. This shows on the Gliederung as a separate Zug.

3./ and 4./AA 4 were both mounted on the 250 variant which was a rare sight by then and again echoes 1943. They were short of roughly a third of their armoured transport each. Interestingly, they used 250/9 also in these Aufklärungskompanien, which was non standard. It is even more interesting to note that this material seems to have been brand new. 47 le SPW were received in Jan 45.

The 5./AA 4 still had a Panzerjäger Zug, which had been dropped in the 1944 Gliederung offically. If the SP is an old Marder or a 251/22 is hard to tell. I suppose the latter, as the presence of another type of armour would probably have been noted next to the 22 mSPW shown. The unit then had 3 x 251/21 Drillinge 2cm and 6 x 251/9 7,5cm Kwks

Cheers
Hans

User avatar
Commissar D, the Evil
Moderator
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:22 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:03 pm

Magnificent Post Hans!!!
Christoph, thanks once again for the helpful information!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

If I could impose upon you guys one last time, any additional information you have on this unit would be vastly appreciated. I'm sorry to have to ask, but this unit is extremely important.

Very Best Regards,
David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

Jan-Hendrik
Patron
Posts: 1984
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:42 am
Location: Wienhausen
Contact:

Post by Jan-Hendrik » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:09 am

Great information , gentlemen :up:

Jan-Hendrik

User avatar
Nibelung
Patron
Posts: 1361
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:37 am
Location: Slovenia, Europe

Post by Nibelung » Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:15 am

Its replies like this that make me want to stop posting. :shock:

Excellent!

best,
Miha
There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people. - Heinz Guderian
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --

Martin Block
Enthusiast
Posts: 416
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:09 am

Pz.A.A. 4 1945

Post by Martin Block » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:23 pm

Some additional info about Pz.A.A. 4 that might be of interest:

A detailed gp.Kfz.Lage in the records of the 4. Pz.Div. show that on 2.2.1945 the following types of Pz.Späh-Wg. were on hand:
4x 222 (2 cm)
4x 223 (Funk)
3x 232 (Funk)
6x 233 (7,5 cm)
1x 247
1x 261 (Funk)
2x 263 (Funk)
18x Luchs (plus 2 in long term repair still in Kurland)

7x 234/1 were still on the way to the division. That these were just 234/1 is also confirmed by a document of the quartermaster general of H.Gr. Weichsel. I have read in some publications that the division also received some 234/4 with this delivery, but so far records show otherwise.

On the same date the division reported having these Sd.Kfz. 250 variants available:
22x 250/1 (plus 1 in long term repair still in Kurland)
17x 250/3 (plus 1 in long term repair still in Kurland)
13x 250/5
16x 250/9
This includes 45 vehicles that just had been delivered (22x 250/1, 2x 250/3, 5x 250/5, 16x 250/9). As Hans already stated 47 le.SPW were shipped in January, but 2 either just failed to arrive in time before the document was completed or maybe were lost, I don't know.

If and how these figures help to explain those given in the 1.3.1945 OoB I leave to someone else. At times this can get frustrating!

One additional note: By an order dated 11.3.1945 the Pz.Aufkl.Abt. München was incorporated into Pz.A.A. 4. I do not know what equipment Pz.A.A. München had still left at that time, but originally it was authorised to have:
2x 4 Rad-Pz.Fu.Wagen
2x le.Pz.Späh-Wg. (Horch)(Fu)
1x 234/2
from Pz.A.E.u.A. 7

8x 251/3
3x 250/3
from H.Nachr.Schule Halle

2x 234/1
1x 234/3
5x 222
from H.Za. Frankfurt/Oder

16x 250/9
from H.Za. Naumburg

I do not know if Pz.A.E.u.A. 7 and H.Nachr.Schule Halle eventually did provide what they had been ordered to, but the delivery records show that at least the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. had shipped 3 s.Pz.Sp.Wg., 7 instead of 5 le.Pz.Sp.Wg. and 16. le.SPW.

Martin Block

Post Reply