Bremen 20 December 1943

Al Crosson · Post by **Al Crosson** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:42 pm

Does anyone have access to information regarding the shooting down of a B-17G in the Albstedt/Finna area northwest of Bremen on 20 December 1943? The B-17 was from the 535th squadron of the 381st Bomb Group. It was initially hit by Me109's and flak, over Bremen, about noon and was followed all the way to the crash site near Albstedt by two Me109's. I am trying to locate any Luftwaffe action reports pertaining to this event, although I am not sure which Luftwaffe units were involved. I visited the site about 4 years ago and talked with witnesses of the crash. However, they could provide no information on the Luftwaffe fighters. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:28 am

There is a website inhabited by hobbits who focus almost exclusively on your type of question: which German pilot shot down B-17 such and such or B-24 such and such on this or that date and place. Here it is:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8

Join the site and ask your question there. There are people there who have the resources to provide an answer.

8th AAF reported there were 27 B-17s and B-24s plus 6 fighters lost on that mission. The following Jagdverbände filed claims:

JG 1: 7 B-17s
JG 11: 3 B-17s, 1 B-24, 2 P-38s, 1 P-47 and 2 P-51s
III./JG 2: 1
II./JG 3: 1
III./JG 26: 5
II./JG 27: 3
III./JG 54: 11
EKdo. 25: 1
ZG 26: 5

Your B-17G was bagged by one of the above. Matching a specific B-17 with the pilot who claimed it in a running melée such as this was is not easy, so I wish you luck. BTW, you are aware that 95% of the Luftwaffe records were intentionally burned the first week of May 1945? That makes working with nitty-gritty details like this particularly difficult.

--Lorenz

Al Crosson · Post by **Al Crosson** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:01 pm

Thanks Lorenz for your response. I tried the 12 o'clock high website last year but you have actually given me more information than I was able to obtain there. I know many Luftwaffe records were destroyed at the war's end (too bad) but I will continue the pursuit for details on this particular crash. Thanks again.

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:16 pm

Al -

Here are all of the B-17 claims for the Bremen raid.

20.12.43 Oblt. Paffrath 6./ZG 26 B-17  DS-7.5: no height [Delmenhorst] 11.40-45 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.52.
20.12.43 Hptm. Alfred Grislawski: (118) 1./JG 1 B-17  CS: 8.000 m. [Brake-Beverstedt area] 11.50 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.15.
20.12.43 Ltn. Peter Reischer 9./JG 26 B-17  DS-8: 7.000 m. [Delmenhorst]11.54 Film C. 2031/IIAnerk: Nr.90.
20.12.43 Fw. Karl Laub 11./JG 26 B-17  FR-3.6: 6.500 m. [W. Barnstorf] 11.56 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.4.
20.12.43 Oblt. Hugo Frey: (24) Stab III./JG 11 B-17  CP-6.6: no height [10 km. S. Aurich] 12.00 Film C. 2031/II VNE: ASM.
20.12.43 Oblt. Goetze: (7) 8./JG 11 B-17  AQ in See: 8.000 m. [off Spiekeroog] 12.03 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.1.
20.12.43 Ltn. Gerhard Loos 9./JG 54 B-17  DS: 8.500 m. [Bremen area] 12.04 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.197.
20.12.43 Ltn. Hans Ehlers: (32) 3./JG 1 B-17  DS-2: 7.500 m. [Bremen area] 12.05 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.21.
20.12.43 Flg. Widmaier: (4) 7./JG 11 B-17  AQ in See: 7.800 m. [off Spiekeroog] 12.05 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.3.
20.12.43 Ltn. Maetzke 7./ZG 76 B-17 Bremen: 8.000 m. 12.20 Film C. 2031/II VNE: ASM.
20.12.43 Ltn. Karl-Heinz Kempf 11./JG 26 B-17  CQ-6: 6.500 m. [Neuenburg] 12.25 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.5.
20.12.43 Hptm. Klaus Mietusch Stab III./JG 26 B-17  BQ-69: 8.000 m. [5 km. N. Wittmund] 12.25 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.76.
20.12.43 Ltn. Alfred Kromer 9./JG 54 B-17  W. Oldheide: 7.500 m. 12.25 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.198.
20.12.43 Fw. Joachim Gutmann 8./ZG 26 B-17  N.W. Bad Feindsenden: 800-400 m. 12.30 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.124.
20.12.43 Ltn. Hans Ehlers 3./JG 1 B-17  UP: 800 m. [North Sea: off Frisians] 12.30 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: ASM.
20.12.43 Uffz. Hubert Swoboda: (2) 11./JG 1 B-17  BP-2: 6.000 m. [Baltrum] 12.30 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.3.
20.12.43 Ltn. Hüsing 7./JG 54 B-17  Insel Juist: 8.700 m. 12.35 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.240.
20.12.43 Ltn. Eberhard Schade: (3) 5./JG 27 B-17  Westerstede: 9.000 m. 12.55 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.123.
20.12.43 Ltn. Vessling Erpo.Kdo 25 B-17  CS-18: 7.800 m. 12.58 Film C. 2031/II VNE: ASM.
20.12.43 Ofw. Rudolf Piffer: (16) 2./JG 1 B-17  DR: 7.000 m. [Oldenburg] 13.21 Film C. 2031/II VNE: ASM.
20.12.43 Oblt. Peter Jenne 1./ZG 26 B-17  Rolde b. Assen: no height 13.25 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.61.
20.12.43 Uffz. Seebeck 9./JG 26 B-17  DD SW: 8.000 m. [Bremen area] 13.48 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: ASM.
20.12.43 Fw. Walter Köhne: (18) 2./JG 1 B-17 HSS  - -Reference: JG 1/11 Lists f. 641.
20.12.43 Hptm. Harry Koch: (30) 6./JG 1 B-17  - - Reference: JG 1/11 Lists f. 641.
20.12.43 Ofw. Detlef Lüth: (37) 4./JG 1 B-17  - -Reference: JG 1/11 Lists f. 641.

[Albstedt: 29.2 km N of Bremen.]

Beverstedt: 39.4 km N of Bremen.
Brake: 36.4 km NNW of Bremen.

Those locations that are underlined plus the last two at the bottom of the list are your best possibilities. All of the others are excluded because of the locations reported. Most of the B-17s came down quite a ways to the northwest of Bremen in Ostfriesland and over the islands off the coast. If the pilot of interest was Hptm. Alfred Grislawski, there is a recent book about him that you could buy that may have additional information about his action during the Bremen mission. The book is in English.

May I ask your connection with this particular B-17G?

--Lorenz

Al Crosson · Post by **Al Crosson** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:40 pm

Lorenz- Thanks so much for the data. My father was the pilot of this B-17. Three of his crew (tail gunner, left waist gunner, copilot) were killed and the rest of the crew were taken prisoner. My father, the radio operator and the ball turret gunner were taken initially to Sandbostel, Stalag 10B. Dad was sent to Stalag Luft 3 in June 1944 after partial recovery from his wounds. I have spent a good portion of the last 28 years trying to reconstruct the events of their time in the 8th Air Force and the discovery of the pilot/unit which shot them down would be one of the last pieces of the puzzle. All of his crew are now dead. The navigator, who is buried in Arlington National Cemetery, being the last one to die on April 15, 2003. It's been a challenging and rewarding research experience.

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:25 am

That's very interesting, Al, and I wish you continuing good luck in your on-going research.

After taking a second look at the list, one of the 5 that are underlined can be eliminated. Leutnant Maetzke from 7./ZG 76 was flying a Bf 110G-2 twin-engine fighter, so he cound not have been one of the two Bf 109s pursuing the Fortress. Also, the last two on the list, Koch and Lüth, can be eliminated. They were both flying Fw 190s and you are quite certain that the pursuing fighters were Bf 109s. So that leaves you with four possibilities: Grislawski, Loos, Ehlers and Seebeck. The first three were major aces and would have attacked the Fortress aggressively.

Well, that's as far as I can go with it. I know of only one way to determine which of the these it might be, and that would be if any of the surviving crew saw the markings on the fuselage of the Bf 109s (a single digit number and the color it was painted in; i.e., white "1", yellow "3", etc.). If you had that information then it might be possible to identify the pilot who brought down the B-17.

--Lorenz

Arne · Post by **Arne** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:43 am

Al,

you should send an email to the staff of the german magazin "Jet&Prop" (of which I'm a regular reader).
It is the publication of the German Society for Aviation-History.
Questions like yours are asked there on a regular basis and get answerd in many cases in the past.

Just tell them everything you know and ask for help.

[email protected]

Al Crosson · Post by **Al Crosson** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:50 am

Lorenz- I have spent a little time working with the various times/distances from the IP to the crash site and the fact that the B-17 was making an autopilot controlled left turn descent after the crew bailed out. I believe the plane crashed sometime between 1200 and 1210 hours based on my calculations. The first pass by the fighters was just at the IP(1147) southeast of Delmenhorst, the plane was hit by flak over the target and there was a second fighter attack just after bombs away(1149). This leads to the possibility that Loos and Ehlers may have been the two pilots who followed the plane down, based on the times (1204/1205) that are reported for their kills. Could they have each claimed a kill for the same plane? The time for Grislawski's reported kill(1150) in the Brake/Beverstedt area seems to be a little early and Seebeck's is too late(1348). Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the German pilots could claim a kill unless the plane was confirmed as crashed. This would seem to preclude any claims immediately after the first attack. The other big unknown is what "Bremen area" actually means. I am going to recontact my sources in the crash site area and reconfirm their information on the fighters and if they recall any aircraft markings. It's a stretch to expect people to recall exact details after all these years but it's worth a try. Thanks again for the information.

Arne- I will give your suggestion a try also. Who knows, there may be someone out there with some additional information yet untapped. One of the problems in my research trail has been the reluctance of the survivors to talk much about their experience and, of course now, there are no living members of this particular B-17 crew. There are some things that people just didn't care to relive. Also, in some cases, I didn't know the exact questions to ask. Thanks for your response.

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:36 pm

Al wrote:

This leads to the possibility that Loos and Ehlers may have been the two pilots who followed the plane down, based on the times (1204/1205) that are reported for their kills. Could they have each claimed a kill for the same plane?

It has always been my understanding that the credit had to go to just one pilot. If he had help and the other pilot also filed a claim for the same plane, then the claim of the awardee would be marked i.Zus.Arb. or im Zusammenwirken (see below).

The claim confirmations (Anerk.) for Loos and Ehlers are not so marked. Hence, they appear to be two different B-17s. Each crash site had to be carefully inspected and eyesitnesses questioned before these confirmations could be issued. Often, this was not until many months later.

[Time in German Time: either CET or CET+1. Film Reference marks the BA-MA film identification. Anerk: = Anerkennung [Acknowledgement] or i.Zus.Arb. Confirmation certificate number. . i.Zus.Arb. = im Zusammenarbeit = in collaboration with. im Zus. = im Zusammenwirken = in cooperation with.]

HTH,

--Lorenz

Arne · Post by **Arne** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:51 am

Just to bring this up to date:

I just purchased the new issue of Jet&Prop and Al's request is printed there now. Let's see what turns up.

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:11 am

Keep us posted, Arne. Jet & Prop, a fine, fine magazine, is just too difficult, tedious and expensive to get in the U.S. The last time I looked, VDM/Heinz Nickel Verlag still did not take credit card transactions, and few people want to be bothered with bank drafts and international bank transfers. By not taking credit cards, VDM is in effect saying that they only want business from within the E.U. and the rest of the world can stay away.

Arne · Post by **Arne** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:27 pm

Don't take it personaly, we Germans are just not used to plastic.
As good as nobody use it for payment in stores over here (for that we use Maestro cards). I have a mastercard for paypal payments on ebay. Otherwise I would not see a need for it.

I will keep you informed what is going on, but since I'm reading J&P for 6 years now, I can tell it can take months or even years before the right guy turns up the right documents to answer such a dificult and specific question...

Erich · Post by **Erich** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:10 pm

I see Lorenz has used Priens excellent work for his figures of the Luftwaffe units kill claims from page 566 of JG 1 and JG 11.

incidently I. and III./ZG 26 were very active with the BR 21cm rockets as I have worked closely with a B-17 crewmen who fought through this hell with the twin engines watching his buddies go down around him like flies. The chaos so great the B-17 crews thought that He 111's had attacked them as the Bf 110G-2's were sitting out of .50 cal range lobbing rockets and then closed in with the 2cm forward weapons on the cripples...........

side notation 11./JG 1 flying 109G's took on several B-17's this date.