Trigger happy US cowboys - or worse?

[Stefan]

The outrageous shooting of freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena and several of her liberators by US forces has put a severe strain on US-Italian relations as the angry Italian public demands an explantaion both by the regime of George W. Butcher and his loyal ally, sleazy media tycoon and right-wing premier Silvio Berlusconi, once labelled as "the greatest danger to democracy in Europe" by Nobel Prize Winner Dario Fo. Sgrena, an award-winning journalist for the Milano-based leftist newspaper Il Manifesto and ardent critic of the US occupation, was doing research on US war crimes when she was kidnapped by Iraqi resistance fighters. The US did nothing to rescue her, but she was freed by her captors after successfull negotiations and handed over to Italian security agents. On their way to the airport, US forces opened fire on the vehicle and riddled it with bullets, killing security agent Nicola Calipari and wounding the other occupants, including Sgrena. Some people have now even raised the question whether the incident was really a "tragic acccident", as Butcher claims, or an attempted "targetted killing" of the Sharon style to prevent Sgrena from releasing the informations on US crimes she had received from the Iraqis and to punish her for her opposition to the Iraq war. Il Manifesto titled: "Giuliana Sgrena is free. The Americans shoot. Her liberator was murdered. His name was Nicola Calipari." The Italian opposition, journalist organizations and peace groups have called for mass protests in front of the American consulate. Leaflets with the slogan "Shame on you, Bush" will be handed out to the protesters.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Stefan,

According to some reports they went through a road block without stopping, so responsibility for the incident is not yet clear.

I know you have preconceived ideas on who was responsible, but most of us prefer to wait for the evidence.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Dackel Staffel]

Hi,

If they were really "happy trigger", noboby were left alive in the car. Did the convoy stop before the warning shot ?
My sergent in the army has shot an innocent shepperd in the night in Tchad on the N'Djamena airport because he didn't answer to the several warnings. This kind of incident happens often in peace or in war, in every army. For myself, I was lucky to avoid that because during my military service, a madman went often in the base. What did it happen if I met this guy in the night and he didn't answer to the warning. My orders were simple : shoot him.

So long.

[Deiter Hollenstein]

The majority of regular reports I've seen indicate that the car she was in failed to stop at a roadblock after being signaled many times to do so. Given the situation in Iraq (or anyplace else where the suicide car bomb is the weapon of choice), I'm not surprised that the troops reacted the way they did. Besides, if the US troops had in fact wanted to kill this person, she would be dead now.

And to turn this at another angle, why was there no coordination (as currently appears to be the case) on the part of the Italians regarding this move? It seems to me that any intelligent security service would have either arranged to make such an exchange through territory controlled by its own forces or made every effort to make sure that the allied unit involved would know that something was going down and have a liaison officer present on the scene. It would appear to be either total ignorance or criminal stupidity on the part of the Italian security service to have failed to make such arrangements. And it also stands to reason that to hide their own mistakes they would loudly blame the US. Or it's also possible that someone in the Italian government considered her a threat and let the happen hoping she would be killed.

Just another theory for you black helicopter conspiracy fans out there.

[Achilles]

All the reports that the car failed to stop orginate from the US military. Not surprising as that is the reason given for every single one of these incidents.

No wonder British military personnel approach every American checkpoint with trepidation.

[Beppo Schmidt]

I think it's pretty ignorant to label the troops "trigger-happy American cowboys", and even imply that they meant to basically deliberately murder her. The car was speeding and did not stop at a checkpoint, how exactly were they supposed to know who was in it? Stefan, I usually respect what you have to say, but this time you've obviously put your personal bias ahead of facts.

[Nate]

Stefan,
I have read your consistently negative comments on the "Bush regime" for quite sometime. What information do you have other than the media as to what actually happened? Have you served in the military? Have you served in a combat zone? Have you ever left the comfort of your home and the screen of your computer? What do you know about what is like in Iraq, the ROE (rules of engagement) or how to react to a speeding vehicle approaching your checkpoint that very well could be a carbomber. I spent 12 months in Iraq and I would have fired also. From initial reports the Italians did not coordinate with ANYONE on the release, if they had they would have passed without incident. I almost wish Kerry had been elected so you would not have a reason to post your diatribes that have nothing to do with German W.W. II history.

[D.W.]

I'll tell you what, this incident was absolutely reprehensible. Someone screwed up big time, and what this God awful shooting has shown, and turns a spotlight on, is the confusion caused by suicide bombers and vehicles that are not being given, apparently, clear indication of the danger involved in stopping, or knowing when and where to stop. It obviously is an inexact and risky business, knowing when to fire and when not to.

It is just inexcusable that this happened, and must outrage the Italian people. I'm so sorry that this happened to all of them. This occupation seemingly only gets worse, even with an election behind them. Not that I have seen anything result from this election, and probably will not for some time. I wondr if the new government is as wobbly as a house of cards in a steady breeze sometimes.

[Hans]

Invader shooting invader is preferable to invader shooting innocent invadees. Makes you wonder how thorough the US training is though. I know we like the Americans, but prefer to be far away from them when the shooting starts, when they are on our side.
Raises the serious question though, that as this was an important release, why were the Americans not informed by the Italians that they were on their way?
- Hans

[Achilles]

The car was speeding and did not stop at a checkpoint

We only have the US military viewpoint on this. The survivors claim differently.

the ROE (rules of engagement) or how to react to a speeding vehicle approaching your checkpoint that very well could be a carbomber

I think it's the rules of engagement that are the problem. There doesn't seem to be any. And what sort of road block tactics is it that allows a car to speed towards it?

I know we like the Americans, but prefer to be far away from them when the shooting starts, when they are on our side

Amen to that.

[Deiter Hollenstein]

All the reports that the car failed to stop orginate from the US military. Not surprising as that is the reason given for every single one of these incidents.

No wonder British military personnel approach every American checkpoint with trepidation.

You still have not addressed the obviously poor planning on the part of the Italian "security personnel" for this move. It's easier, as usual, to blame the bad Americans than it is to look at what was obviously a blunder (to put it mildly) on the part of the Italians.

[Achilles]

You still have not addressed the obviously poor planning on the part of the Italian "security personnel" for this move. It's easier, as usual, to blame the bad Americans than it is to look at what was obviously a blunder (to put it mildly) on the part of the Italians.

While it would have been benefical for the Italians to have notified the US this was going to happen have you wondered why they perhaps did not? Given the US aversion to dealing with kidnappers, the sensitive nature of the negotiations and the fact the woman's life was in danger do you really think the Italians are going to risk a security breach by telling the Americans?

The point here is that US forces have chalked up an enormous amount of these incidents...they are not one offs. And we generally only hear about those that result in the fatalities of children or friendly forces. There is something intrinsically wrong with the US ROE and it's roadblock tactics.

And dare I say it, it's fire discipline.

[D.W.]

No, Achilles, you are correct. I have to agree completely with you. These incidents are far too numerous, and far too underreported. It is absolutely inconceivable that there is no better enforcement of traffic and, especially, anything within a half mile of a roadblock. When it happens at night (I don't know what hour this incident occured) you can triple the confusion.

What I would like to remind everyone is that the nature of this ongoing war and with youth, everyone having weapons and some personal knowledge of the effects of friendly or hostile fire the occassion for incidents like this to happen are very high. If you were an oddsmaker you would have to bet that it would occur often due to confusion. You cannot work that out of anyones game plan or rulebook for surviving an occupation.

A better establishment of warnings for all drivers, but as is the case in alot of the world, to include America at times, people ignore warnings. With all the shooting going on this driver may not have understood the meaning of warning shots. And accelerated.

The nature of war is not fair, is it?

[Deiter Hollenstein]

So in other words it's ok for the Italians to be idiots in their planning, but wrong for US forces to follow their ROE? Using a car in an area like this, especially if such incidents are as common as some posters claim, is idiotic in the extreme. Blame the US all you want, but at the end of the day it was the Italians who came up with this plan. And if you want to talk security, it would seem that someone's obsession with "security" resulted in a foolish plan that went wrong.

Why, for example, didn't the "security" people attempt to link up with Italian forces closer to their exchange point? Surely the Italians must have a helicopter or two somewhere in Iraq - they could have arranged a landing, filing for clearence as a VIP flight or some such in order to enter the airspace. Or simply meeting with a single armored vehicle (clearly marked as Italian or possibly UN) at a safe distance from the exchange point. With the number of options that could have been available, why choose the worst one?

What may be poor roadblock control does NOT absolve the Italians from coming up with an idiotic plan. I'm not saying that the soldiers were right or wrong in their actions, but trying to pin the entire thing on them is simply stupid.

[D.W.]

A logical argument on both sides. It shows the confusion of the present situation when U.S. troops sit behind sandbags, tense and ready, and a foreign reporter is kidnapped for publicity, released for even more publicity, and then this happens.