Re: Info for Ron K.

German weapons, vehicles and equipment 1919-1945.

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Mark E Horan
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Re: Info for Ron K.

Post by Mark E Horan » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:10 am

Ron;

In a post below you provided a great deal of information about the 30 Lg.s.F.H. 13 (Sfl.) auf Lorraine-Schlepper assigned to the Afrika Korps in 1942. In it, you noted that seven were lost at sea: a batches of three lost in July, and a batch of four lost in August.

One of my other areas of interest is the attacks by RAF Beauforts on Italian convoys to Afrika. in my research I have acquired Italian documentation for every convoy to/from Italy/Afrika and Italy/Greece. It includes depature dates, attacks and losses, and arrival dates.

You noted three ships having been already loaded with ten of these vehicles in July 1942, specifically Pisani (3), Pilo(4), and Sestriere (3).

The three vehicls lost in July sank with Vettor Pisani. This veteran of the Afrika run was 6,3339 BRT motorship, completed in 1939. Escorted by the torpedo boats Antares and Calliope and the destroyer escort Orsa, she was attacked on 24 July by 9 Beauforts operating out of Malta (combined 39/86/217 Squadrons, RAF), escorted by 5 Beaufighters and hit by one torpedo. Though not sunk, the ship was badly damaged and towed to Argostoli where, the next day, she was bombed & burned out by RAF bombers.

Italian/German cargo ships lost enroute to Afrika in August 1942 were MS Monviso (5,322 BRT, lost 03.08), SS Wachtfels (G, 8,647 BRT, lost 07.08), SS Ogaden (4,533 BRT, lost 12.08), MS Lerici (6,070 BRT, lost 15.08), MS Nino Bixio (7,137 BRT, lost 17.08), MS Rosolino Pilo (8,326 BRT, lost 18.08), MT Pozarica (7,751 BRT, 21.08), SS Dielpi (1,527 BRT, lost 27.08), SS Istria (5,416 BRT, lost 27.08), MS Manfredo Camperio (5,463 BRT, lost 27.08), SS Paolina (G, 5,894 BRT, lost 27.08), ST Sanandrea (5,077 BRT, lost 30.08). If you can identify the ships that loaded the last 10 vehicls, I can supply the details of the loss.

Hope this helps.

Mark

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xavier
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Post by xavier » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:59 pm

welcome to the forum Mark,
I have some very general questions, regarding your area of investigation.....
how many pieces of armour (tanks) and artillery, were lost while in route to North africa?
how many vehicles (general issue, trucks, cars, halftracks..)
how much of it was sunk near the coast? (under cover of africa based fighters)
which ship was the single biggest loss (or blow) to the axis (number of vehicles, tanks or needed material, like fuel, ammo, etc on a single event.......)

sorry for the inconvenience, just some general knowledge I lack about the axis forces ops in North africa.

best regards

Xavier
"Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit"

Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill:
Cicero

Ron Klages
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Thank You

Post by Ron Klages » Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:24 pm

Mark,

Great information. I will try to determine the ships but I suspect it is the MS Rosolino Pilo.

Thank you,

best regards,

Ron Klages
Ron Klages
Lynnwood, Washington USA

Mark E Horan
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re: Loss of Rosolino Pilo

Post by Mark E Horan » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:13 pm

Ron;

Rosolino Pilo, a 8,36 BRT motor-ship, was virtually brand new, having been completed in the early summer. After loading at Napoli, she sailed for Tripoli from Trapani on 17 August at 0630, escorted by the destroyers Maestrale (flag) and Gioberti. Sighted by reconnaissance aircraft, FL Donald Charles “Hank” Sharman, RAF 33529 led off a strike force from Malta composed of 6 Beauforts of 86 Squadron, escorted by 5 Beaufighters & 8 Sptfires. The convoy was attacked at 1530, the Beauforts hitting Pilo once, leaving her dead in the water, while the strafing Beaufighters gave Giobeti a severe going over as well. The tug Montecristo put out from Pantellaria and took her under tow, but was still 50 miles south of the island when she was torpedoed and sunk by the submarine HMS P-44 (United).

Mark

For Xavier;

My information on the Italian convoys includes location, date, and time of sailing, all convoy ships and their escorts, location, date, and time of arrival, and significant events (attacks on the convoy) - but, unfortunately, I have no details on the actual cargo carried. i do have complete listings of all losses, but again, no details on cargo.

I wish I did ...!!!

Sorry,

Mark

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Shadow
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Post by Shadow » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:31 am

Greetings Mark - :D

Welcome to the Forum !!

Wonderful information ! Thanks for sharing !

Best regards,
Signed: "The Shadow"

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xavier
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Post by xavier » Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:43 am

@ Mark: many thanks!

Last Night I was reading a passage from Time-Life's The third reich series: Afrikakorps and mentioned more armour was lost en-route to norht africa than on the actual battlefields, it si true? an aproximate amount or number would help...

regards

Xavier
"Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit"

Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill:
Cicero

Ron Klages
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I Doubt It.

Post by Ron Klages » Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:06 pm

Xavier,

I believe the Time Life series in not correct.

For example the records of the PzAOK-Afrika give the following as shipping losses for Jan-Sep 1942:

PzIII - 30 (3 Mar, 6 May, 6 Jun, 3 Jul, 3 Aug, 9 Sep)
PzIV - 0
PzSpWg - 7 (3 Mar, 4 Sep)
Other armored vehicles - 2 (Mar)

That is only 39 vehicles over nine months or an average of 4+ vehicles per month. In total the Germans were in Africa from February 1941 to May 1943 or 328 months. At the above average they would have lost 121+ vehicles. To lose more than 1700 vehicles their monthly loss rate would have been greater than 61 vehicles per month. I can of doubt that.

I do not have figures for other periods of time but if you consider all types of fully tracked vehicles that fought for the Germans in North Africa the number is over 1700 vehicles. I doubt that there were ever that many lost in transit. For example there were no Tigers lost.

My data shows the following quantity and types of armored vehicles in North Africa during the campaign.

Panzer I=54
4.7cm Pak auf Panzer I=27
Panzer II=176
15cm Auf Panzer II=12
7.62cm Marder III=66
Panzer III=899
Panzer IV=338
Panzer VI=31
kleine BefsPanzer=7
Grosser BefsPanzer=27
15cm auf Lorraine Chassis=23 plus 7 lost in ship sinking
StuG III=7 plus 2 lost in ship sinking
Goliath=24
BIV Demolition vehicle=20

Time Life appears to be overatating.

Best regards,

Ron Klages
Ron Klages
Lynnwood, Washington USA

Ron Klages
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OOPS

Post by Ron Klages » Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:08 pm

In total the Germans were in Africa from February 1941 to May 1943 or 328 months.

This should read 28 months.

Sorry about that.

Ron
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xavier
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Post by xavier » Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:21 pm

Thanks a lot Ron!

About the Tiger I's , Yes, I knew not a single one was lost while in route

I guess for the sake of security, they did not send large amounts of armour in a single ship..a beter chance of arrivngi if sent in multiple shipments
bets regards

Xavier
"Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit"

Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill:
Cicero

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