Guys,
I am reading now some books about the defeat of the Group Army "South Ukraine" of General Frisner in August-September 1944 in Moldovia and Romania by the Russian forces of General Tolbukhin and General Malinovsky.
According to German General Huderian, Commander of the German General Staff in 1944, sixteen (16) Wehrmacht divisions were completely annihilated in Romania. Another interesting aspect was behavior of the Romanian units, which in the critical moments defected and surrendered to the Russian Army. The main outcome of this operation was defeat of the Group Army "South Ukraine", exit Romania from the war as an ally of Germany and clearance of Moldavia and Romania from Wehrmacht.
I would be greatly interested to get some information from western sources about these combats.
Best Regards from Russia,
Defeat of the Group Army "South Ukraine" in Romani
Moderator: sniper1shot
Guys,
I came to know that about 256 000 Germans and Romanians were killed or captured during the Yassy-Kishyniev (Iasi-Cisiniau) Operation, 1944. (http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-cc.html). According to General Huderian sixteen (16) German divisions were completely defeated during this battle. Can somebody give me more details about Wehrmacht divisions, which were defeated in Romania and who were commanders of these divisions.
Best Regards from Russia,
I came to know that about 256 000 Germans and Romanians were killed or captured during the Yassy-Kishyniev (Iasi-Cisiniau) Operation, 1944. (http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-cc.html). According to General Huderian sixteen (16) German divisions were completely defeated during this battle. Can somebody give me more details about Wehrmacht divisions, which were defeated in Romania and who were commanders of these divisions.
Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
Some more info about the brilliant Yassy-Kishyniev (Iasi-Cisiniau) Operation, 1944.
As a result of successful Russian offensive in Ukraine the forces of the 2nd Ukrainian Front of General Malinovsky in April 1944 reached to the line to the north of Yassy and Orgeev and shifted to the defense. The forces of the 3rd Ukrainian Front of General Tolbukhin reached the Dnester River and captured a few bridgeheads on its western bank. In front of the Soviet forces of Generals Malinovsky and Tolbukhin, there was the Group Armies of the South Ukraine of General Frisner, comprising from two groupings: First one: 8th German and 4th Romanian Armies +17th German Infantry Corps. The second one: 6th German and the 3rd Romanian Armies.
By August 20th 1944 in the sector of the 2nd & the 3rd Ukrainian Fronts and the Group Army South Ukraine was the following correlation of forces.
Numerical strength (in thousand of men):
Russian forces: 930,0 + 320,0 (rear units)
German and Romanian forces: 640,0 +260,0 (rear units)
Tanks and SP Guns:
Russian forces: 1900
German and Romanian forces: over 400
Artillery and mortars:
Russian forces: 16100
German and allied forces: 7600
Aviation:
Russian forces: 2200
German and Romanian forces: 800
(http://krieg.wallst.ru/frames-k/kishinev.html)
The Germans created strong-hold defense, comprising from three defense lines supported by complex terrain. In accordance with plans of the Soviet Stavka, the forces of the 2nd & 3rd Ukrainian Fronts in coordination with the Black Sea Fleet & Dunai River Flotilia had to breakthrough in two sectors: to the north-west to Yassy and to the south of Bendery and encircle & defeat the main forces of the Group Armies South Ukraine in the areas of Yassy and Kishynev. And then develop an offensive inside the Romania. In the main breakthrough sectors (16 kilometers on the sector of the 2nd UF and 18 kilometers in the sector of the 3rd UF) high concentration of forces were achieved: up to 240 cannons and mortars and 56 tanks and SP guns per kilometer of front. The Rifle divisions were advancing on the front of less than one kilometer. On August 20th 1944, the Russian forces began its strategic offensive supported by the aviation of the 5th and 17th Air Armies. The Shocking grouping of the Russian troops broke through the first German defense line and the second defense line in the sector of the 27th Russian Army, where the 6th Russian Tank Army was engaged in the breakthrough. By the end of the first day of offensive, the Russian forces advanced for 6-16 kilometers. On the second day of offensive, two tank, two motorized and a cavalry corps’ were engaged into combats. At the night of August 22nd 1944 the war ships of the Dunai River Flotilia carried out landing through Dnestr River estuary with an aim of encircling the right flank of the 3rd Romanian Army and captured Vilkovo and Kilia ports.
On the August 24th, the mobile groupings of the Russian forces reached areas of Hushi and Leovo and completed encirclement of 18 (eighteen) German divisions of the The Group Armies South Ukraine out of 25 divisions.
The 46th Russian Army of the 3rd Ukranian Front of General Tolbukhin pushed the units of the 3rd Romanian Army to the Black Sea, where on the 24th August 1944, the 3rd Romanian Army finished its resistance. By the end of the 24th August, Russian forces advanced for 130-140 kilometers. As a result of the success of the Russian Army, on the August 23rd, the Antonesku regime fell and Romania announced its exit from the German block and next day entered into war against Germany. The main Russian forces went on its offensive. By 29th August 1944 the elimination of the encircled German units to the west of Prut River was completed. The advance units of Russians reached oil-fields of Ploeshti, Bucharest and Konstanza. Retreating, Germans applied the “burnt soil” tactic and destroyed 76% of residential buildings in Kishynev, 80% in Bendery, 71% in Orgeev, 50% of residential buildings in Belzy and 44% in Tiraspol. In the rural areas thousands of peasant’s houses were burnt by Germans. The Russian Army inflicted the crushing defeat to the enemy near Yassy and Kishynev.
Yassy-Kishyniev (Iasi-Cisiniau) Operation, 1944 was performed in the classical Cannes style and was characterized by wise choice of main offensive directions, decisive forces concentrations in the breakthrough sectors, high advancing rate, quick encirclement & defeat of sizeable grouping of German troops and close cooperation of infantry units, aviation and fleet forces.
The casualties of the Russian forces during Yassy-Kishyniev operation were 67,130 men (13,197 killed or missing and 53,933 sanitary losses) as per Krivosheev. The casualties of Germans and Romanians were standing at 256,000 killed or captured as per http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-cc.html.
Best Regards from Russia,
As a result of successful Russian offensive in Ukraine the forces of the 2nd Ukrainian Front of General Malinovsky in April 1944 reached to the line to the north of Yassy and Orgeev and shifted to the defense. The forces of the 3rd Ukrainian Front of General Tolbukhin reached the Dnester River and captured a few bridgeheads on its western bank. In front of the Soviet forces of Generals Malinovsky and Tolbukhin, there was the Group Armies of the South Ukraine of General Frisner, comprising from two groupings: First one: 8th German and 4th Romanian Armies +17th German Infantry Corps. The second one: 6th German and the 3rd Romanian Armies.
By August 20th 1944 in the sector of the 2nd & the 3rd Ukrainian Fronts and the Group Army South Ukraine was the following correlation of forces.
Numerical strength (in thousand of men):
Russian forces: 930,0 + 320,0 (rear units)
German and Romanian forces: 640,0 +260,0 (rear units)
Tanks and SP Guns:
Russian forces: 1900
German and Romanian forces: over 400
Artillery and mortars:
Russian forces: 16100
German and allied forces: 7600
Aviation:
Russian forces: 2200
German and Romanian forces: 800
(http://krieg.wallst.ru/frames-k/kishinev.html)
The Germans created strong-hold defense, comprising from three defense lines supported by complex terrain. In accordance with plans of the Soviet Stavka, the forces of the 2nd & 3rd Ukrainian Fronts in coordination with the Black Sea Fleet & Dunai River Flotilia had to breakthrough in two sectors: to the north-west to Yassy and to the south of Bendery and encircle & defeat the main forces of the Group Armies South Ukraine in the areas of Yassy and Kishynev. And then develop an offensive inside the Romania. In the main breakthrough sectors (16 kilometers on the sector of the 2nd UF and 18 kilometers in the sector of the 3rd UF) high concentration of forces were achieved: up to 240 cannons and mortars and 56 tanks and SP guns per kilometer of front. The Rifle divisions were advancing on the front of less than one kilometer. On August 20th 1944, the Russian forces began its strategic offensive supported by the aviation of the 5th and 17th Air Armies. The Shocking grouping of the Russian troops broke through the first German defense line and the second defense line in the sector of the 27th Russian Army, where the 6th Russian Tank Army was engaged in the breakthrough. By the end of the first day of offensive, the Russian forces advanced for 6-16 kilometers. On the second day of offensive, two tank, two motorized and a cavalry corps’ were engaged into combats. At the night of August 22nd 1944 the war ships of the Dunai River Flotilia carried out landing through Dnestr River estuary with an aim of encircling the right flank of the 3rd Romanian Army and captured Vilkovo and Kilia ports.
On the August 24th, the mobile groupings of the Russian forces reached areas of Hushi and Leovo and completed encirclement of 18 (eighteen) German divisions of the The Group Armies South Ukraine out of 25 divisions.
The 46th Russian Army of the 3rd Ukranian Front of General Tolbukhin pushed the units of the 3rd Romanian Army to the Black Sea, where on the 24th August 1944, the 3rd Romanian Army finished its resistance. By the end of the 24th August, Russian forces advanced for 130-140 kilometers. As a result of the success of the Russian Army, on the August 23rd, the Antonesku regime fell and Romania announced its exit from the German block and next day entered into war against Germany. The main Russian forces went on its offensive. By 29th August 1944 the elimination of the encircled German units to the west of Prut River was completed. The advance units of Russians reached oil-fields of Ploeshti, Bucharest and Konstanza. Retreating, Germans applied the “burnt soil” tactic and destroyed 76% of residential buildings in Kishynev, 80% in Bendery, 71% in Orgeev, 50% of residential buildings in Belzy and 44% in Tiraspol. In the rural areas thousands of peasant’s houses were burnt by Germans. The Russian Army inflicted the crushing defeat to the enemy near Yassy and Kishynev.
Yassy-Kishyniev (Iasi-Cisiniau) Operation, 1944 was performed in the classical Cannes style and was characterized by wise choice of main offensive directions, decisive forces concentrations in the breakthrough sectors, high advancing rate, quick encirclement & defeat of sizeable grouping of German troops and close cooperation of infantry units, aviation and fleet forces.
The casualties of the Russian forces during Yassy-Kishyniev operation were 67,130 men (13,197 killed or missing and 53,933 sanitary losses) as per Krivosheev. The casualties of Germans and Romanians were standing at 256,000 killed or captured as per http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-cc.html.
Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
Jagdtiger,Jagdtiger wrote:So what?
The HG South Ukraine was completely defeated in Moldavia and Romania in August-September 1944 by the 2nd and 3rd Ukrainians Fronts of Russian Generals Malinovsky and Tolbukhin. Sixteen (!) German divisions were completely annihilated there and Romania, as an ally of Germany, was knocked-out from the war. On the contrary, Romania entered into war with Nazi Germany. I understand that those like you are not interested to learn anything about Bagration, Yassy-Kishyniev, Lvov-Sandomir, Balaton, Visla-Oder or Eastern-Prussian operations of the Russian Army for the very simple reason 'cause Russian solders kicked the butt of your lovely Nazi there.
Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
According to my source, the Russian forces composed of:
94 rifle divisions, 6 tank and mechanized corps, 1 cavalry corps, and numerous independent units.
930,000 troops
16,000 artillery pieces, rocket launchers and mortars
1,400 tanks and self-propelled guns
1,760 aircraft
German and Rumanian forces at the focal point of the attack composed of:
6 German corps with 18 divisions, 2 Rumanian corps with 17 divisions, 4 brigades, 2 German armored divisions, and 5 assault gun brigades.
470,000 troops total, 200,000 Rumanian
160 tanks, over half of these Rumanian
283 assault guns and self-propelled howitzers
232 Luftwaffe aircraft
With the exception of the Rumanian Air Force, which fought alongside the Luftwaffe until the 23 August armistice, Rumanian forces played little role. In fact, they helped the Russians with their encirclement later in the battle. According to the same source:
"On the eve of August 19 German sentries reported something unusual: light signals and parachute illumination flares were seen from the Russian side, which were answered in places by the Rumanians."
And during the opening stages of the offensive:
"The Rumanian defense - where any was offered - collapsed quickly. Elements of both Rumanian corps, probably in secret agreement with the attacking enemy, abandoned their positions with scarcely any fighting, while the remaining units were quickly broken."
Senior members of the Rumanian military command had been eager to leave the pact with Germany for some time. This offensive seemed to speed up the process.
Given these facts, it seems like a fairly one-sided battle to me. It's no surprise that there was some butt kicking involved.
Source: Buchner, Alex. Ostfront 1944: The German Defensive Battles on the Russian Front 1944. Atglen, GA: Schiffer Military, 1995.
94 rifle divisions, 6 tank and mechanized corps, 1 cavalry corps, and numerous independent units.
930,000 troops
16,000 artillery pieces, rocket launchers and mortars
1,400 tanks and self-propelled guns
1,760 aircraft
German and Rumanian forces at the focal point of the attack composed of:
6 German corps with 18 divisions, 2 Rumanian corps with 17 divisions, 4 brigades, 2 German armored divisions, and 5 assault gun brigades.
470,000 troops total, 200,000 Rumanian
160 tanks, over half of these Rumanian
283 assault guns and self-propelled howitzers
232 Luftwaffe aircraft
With the exception of the Rumanian Air Force, which fought alongside the Luftwaffe until the 23 August armistice, Rumanian forces played little role. In fact, they helped the Russians with their encirclement later in the battle. According to the same source:
"On the eve of August 19 German sentries reported something unusual: light signals and parachute illumination flares were seen from the Russian side, which were answered in places by the Rumanians."
And during the opening stages of the offensive:
"The Rumanian defense - where any was offered - collapsed quickly. Elements of both Rumanian corps, probably in secret agreement with the attacking enemy, abandoned their positions with scarcely any fighting, while the remaining units were quickly broken."
Senior members of the Rumanian military command had been eager to leave the pact with Germany for some time. This offensive seemed to speed up the process.
Given these facts, it seems like a fairly one-sided battle to me. It's no surprise that there was some butt kicking involved.
Source: Buchner, Alex. Ostfront 1944: The German Defensive Battles on the Russian Front 1944. Atglen, GA: Schiffer Military, 1995.
Hey Jock,
It has been quite a while. But yeah, it's cool. That's part of the reason why I replied actually. I believe you can e-mail me through this site. I tried sending you a private message several months back, but I'm not sure what happend with that.
Whoa, I thought you loved that thing. Now you're ashamed to mention the company that made it!
Bonzen,
Vickers, eh? Not quite, those things have a turret.
It has been quite a while. But yeah, it's cool. That's part of the reason why I replied actually. I believe you can e-mail me through this site. I tried sending you a private message several months back, but I'm not sure what happend with that.
Whoa, I thought you loved that thing. Now you're ashamed to mention the company that made it!
Bonzen,
Vickers, eh? Not quite, those things have a turret.
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Igorn,
The idea that Romanian formations defected by pre-arrangement with the Russians appears to be a complete fiction that some post-war German memoirs have latched onto as an excuse for their defeat.
It seems to be the case that the Romanians, who bore the brunt of the assault, attempted to resist the Red Army but were quickly overwhelmed. The fronts of neighbouring German divisions were breached almost as quickly.
Romania withdrew from the Axis three-four days after the Red Army opened its assault at Iasi-Chisinau and Romanian units only began to operate against the Germans after they attacked Bucharest on the morning of 24 August. This is discussed in some detail in "Third Axis, Fourth Ally".
The Red Army's victory at Iasi-Chisinau was one of its best planned and executed operations of the war.
Cheers,
Sid.
The idea that Romanian formations defected by pre-arrangement with the Russians appears to be a complete fiction that some post-war German memoirs have latched onto as an excuse for their defeat.
It seems to be the case that the Romanians, who bore the brunt of the assault, attempted to resist the Red Army but were quickly overwhelmed. The fronts of neighbouring German divisions were breached almost as quickly.
Romania withdrew from the Axis three-four days after the Red Army opened its assault at Iasi-Chisinau and Romanian units only began to operate against the Germans after they attacked Bucharest on the morning of 24 August. This is discussed in some detail in "Third Axis, Fourth Ally".
The Red Army's victory at Iasi-Chisinau was one of its best planned and executed operations of the war.
Cheers,
Sid.
Igorn wrote;
Who is loving Nazies here? You are mixing up things badly. I've seen more writings here in a good spirit of the father of all the nations, the sunlight from the east, J.Stalin, than anyone shouting louad any nazi-ideoligies. Given a name to a worse threat for humankind does not make any difference whether its called nazism (you'd rather call it fascism, a little nationalism is not that bad. You are yourself a perfect example of nationalist. People tend to mix up these things.) or communism. Uncle Joe was not any better than little Adolf, but that is not the point here in this forum. So lets drop the politics and stay focused on the military things.
Cheers, Max
[/quote]I understand that those like you are not interested to learn anything about Bagration, Yassy-Kishyniev, Lvov-Sandomir, Balaton, Visla-Oder or Eastern-Prussian operations of the Russian Army for the very simple reason 'cause Russian solders kicked the butt of your lovely Nazi there.
Best Regards from Russia,
Who is loving Nazies here? You are mixing up things badly. I've seen more writings here in a good spirit of the father of all the nations, the sunlight from the east, J.Stalin, than anyone shouting louad any nazi-ideoligies. Given a name to a worse threat for humankind does not make any difference whether its called nazism (you'd rather call it fascism, a little nationalism is not that bad. You are yourself a perfect example of nationalist. People tend to mix up these things.) or communism. Uncle Joe was not any better than little Adolf, but that is not the point here in this forum. So lets drop the politics and stay focused on the military things.
Cheers, Max
Max,
You are completely wrong in this point, I never posted any info in a good spirit of Stalin or communism and never said that Joseph Stalin was better than Adolf Hitler. If I posted, prove it and don't slander.
For your information, I never belonged to communist party and hate communism, which caused great sufferings and grief to Russia and Russian people. But, I am a patriot (not nationalist as you said) of my country and proud of the great history of the Russian Army and their generals since the time of Peter the Great till nowdays. And there is something to be proud of: the Northern war of 1700-1721, Poltava Battle of 1709 and defeat of Karl the Great, The seven years war and brilliant wins of Suvorov over Prussia, Russian-Turkish wars, The war of 1812 (Borodino and defeat of Napoleon), Liberation of Bulgaria from Turkey's invasion, Khalkin-Gol, Stalingrad, Kursk, Bagration, Lvov-Sandomir operation, Yassy-Kishynev, Eastern-Prussia operation, Budapesht & Balaton operations, Berlin & Prague opeartions, Manchurian operation etc.
Best Regards from Russia,
You are completely wrong in this point, I never posted any info in a good spirit of Stalin or communism and never said that Joseph Stalin was better than Adolf Hitler. If I posted, prove it and don't slander.
For your information, I never belonged to communist party and hate communism, which caused great sufferings and grief to Russia and Russian people. But, I am a patriot (not nationalist as you said) of my country and proud of the great history of the Russian Army and their generals since the time of Peter the Great till nowdays. And there is something to be proud of: the Northern war of 1700-1721, Poltava Battle of 1709 and defeat of Karl the Great, The seven years war and brilliant wins of Suvorov over Prussia, Russian-Turkish wars, The war of 1812 (Borodino and defeat of Napoleon), Liberation of Bulgaria from Turkey's invasion, Khalkin-Gol, Stalingrad, Kursk, Bagration, Lvov-Sandomir operation, Yassy-Kishynev, Eastern-Prussia operation, Budapesht & Balaton operations, Berlin & Prague opeartions, Manchurian operation etc.
Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
Dear Mr. Igorn,Igorn wrote:Jagdtiger,Jagdtiger wrote:So what?
The HG South Ukraine was completely defeated in Moldavia and Romania in August-September 1944 by the 2nd and 3rd Ukrainians Fronts of Russian Generals Malinovsky and Tolbukhin. Sixteen (!) German divisions were completely annihilated there and Romania, as an ally of Germany, was knocked-out from the war. On the contrary, Romania entered into war with Nazi Germany. I understand that those like you are not interested to learn anything about Bagration, Yassy-Kishyniev, Lvov-Sandomir, Balaton, Visla-Oder or Eastern-Prussian operations of the Russian Army for the very simple reason 'cause Russian solders kicked the butt of your lovely Nazi there.
Best Regards from Russia,
as much as you try to be smart you just fall fack to your propaganda-type language time and again. You´ll probably live very well with it but I - and with me a lot of other people - can just shake my head over so much ignorance (or is ist IGORance?). If you prefer to paint a picture of history that fits you and people like you, why don´t you try to get a job at Prawda?
One other thing: I very well remember another thread in which someone accused you of being a communist and you threatened him with international law. So be it... But you don´t seem to have any problems with calling other people on this forum nazis, nazi lovers and so on. This alone dis-qualifies you as a viable partner for discussions. If it ain´t your way then it´s wrong.
In my eyes you are a very sad person and I feel sorry for you.
Greetings from the people´s republic of California
Gott mit uns!
Jagdtiger,
I don' get you when you are talking about ignorance. In my post I drew your attention that many brilliant operations performed by the Russian Army during World War II (e.g. Crimean, Lvov-Sandomir and Jassy-Kishynev operations of 1944, Eastern-Prussian & Vistula-Order opeartions of 1945, Budapesht & Balaton operations of 1944-45, Berlin & Prague operations of 1945) were almost completely ignored and neglected in the Feldgrau forums. While successful operations of Wehrmacht (e.g pockets of 1941 or Kharkov operation of 1943 etc.) were discussed in different threads many times and in great details. Majority of threads devoted to the Russian Army on the Feldgrau (e.g Russian fear of Waffen SS, Russians without numerical superiority, Russian losses at Kursk, Barbarossa etc.) portrayed Russian Army only from negative side and I just wanted to balance out this unfairness by posting some true information about Russian Army and their weapon.
Based on these facts, I came to the conclusion that some Feldgrau visitors are interested to study or discuss only successful operations of Nazi Germany and keep quiet & completely ignore military wins and achievements of the Russian Army.
Jagdtiger, if you don't belong to this group of people, take my apologies.
Best Regards from Russia,
I don' get you when you are talking about ignorance. In my post I drew your attention that many brilliant operations performed by the Russian Army during World War II (e.g. Crimean, Lvov-Sandomir and Jassy-Kishynev operations of 1944, Eastern-Prussian & Vistula-Order opeartions of 1945, Budapesht & Balaton operations of 1944-45, Berlin & Prague operations of 1945) were almost completely ignored and neglected in the Feldgrau forums. While successful operations of Wehrmacht (e.g pockets of 1941 or Kharkov operation of 1943 etc.) were discussed in different threads many times and in great details. Majority of threads devoted to the Russian Army on the Feldgrau (e.g Russian fear of Waffen SS, Russians without numerical superiority, Russian losses at Kursk, Barbarossa etc.) portrayed Russian Army only from negative side and I just wanted to balance out this unfairness by posting some true information about Russian Army and their weapon.
Based on these facts, I came to the conclusion that some Feldgrau visitors are interested to study or discuss only successful operations of Nazi Germany and keep quiet & completely ignore military wins and achievements of the Russian Army.
Jagdtiger, if you don't belong to this group of people, take my apologies.
Best Regards from Russia,
Igor