Final defence of Berlin

[Dackel Staffel]

Hi Sid,

He suffers from one of the great weaknesses (in my opinion) of much French historical writing

I'am agree with you Sid but it's true also that it is only this kind of books which are translated into a foreign language. We have a lot of serious history books on WWII. But I guess Jean Mabire is like Dominique De Villepin : a little bit too much "flamboyant".

So long.

[sid guttridge]

Hi D.S.,

True. There are a good number of serious French books on WWII and I always come back with several, good and bad. This time I bought a couple more volumes of "L'Histoire de la Ligne Maginot" by Roger Bruge. These cover a subject almost completely ignored in English language publications - the fate of the fortress and interval troops.

One thing I am always looking for is a book covering French military reaction to the various war scares between the remilitarisation of the Rhineland in 1936 and the outbreak of war in 1939. I would particularly like to see details of French deployments at the height of the Munich Crisis. Have you any ideas?

Cheers,

Sid.

[George Lepre]

Hi Side and D.S. -

I too enjoy reading French military history, but find that many of the books are written in that "adventure novel" style (Jacques Robichon is a notable example). The same is true of many books written about the Indochina War, and, of course, the Foreign Legion.

However, this seems to be changing. New French historians, especially the excellent Jean-Christoph Notin, write in a very scholarly style. His works, together with the official French army histories of the campaigns, make excellent reading.

Best regards,

George

[Laurent Daniel]

The problem of the French books about WW2 is that only the romantic literature is translated in English, not the serious historical materials.

Jean Mabire is typical. He is an author, not an historian. His books are based on true facts and figures but he is not writing historical thesis, he is writing novels that must be easy to read.

Just to cross check my theory:
Does anyone here ever found a book in English from Dominique Venner called "History of the collaboration"?
Or the "Hitler" from Francois Delpla.

In their French original version, both books are extremely interesting but cannot be read as a novel :-)

Regards
Daniel

[sid guttridge]

Hi Laurent,

Very few French military history books on WWII, good or bad, seem to get translated into English. I think the only one I have got is a history of the French 1st Army (by General Lattre de Tassigny?) published in the UK in about 1950.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Hi George,

Do any of the French official histories give details of their mobilisation measures during the various crises of the 1930s?

I have found generalised mentions in the post war "proceses" and in Gamelin and Weygand, but nothing very specific.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Arne]

Hi Sid,

He suffers from one of the great weaknesses (in my opinion) of much French historical writing

I'am agree with you Sid but it's true also that it is only this kind of books which are translated into a foreign language. We have a lot of serious history books on WWII. But I guess Jean Mabire is like Dominique De Villepin : a little bit too much "flamboyant".

So long.

Even if Mabire is (with no doubt) a rightist, he was the first western writer who worked on the Ungern-Sternberg topic since the 1930s. It is more than difficult to gather information on what happend there and he did a good job.

[Laurent Daniel]

This thread being about the last day of Berlin defence, I feel appropriate to recall the saga of the 300 French Waffen SS, survivors of the 33 Waffen SS Divison Charlemagne who reached Berlin under the lead of the SS Haupsturmfuhrer Henri Fenet. They were all volunteers, they were all given the choice and could have been moving to the west to surrender to the Allied forces.

This Sturmbattalion is the last 3rd Reich force to join Berlin defence before complete Russian encirclement. They reached the Tempelholf Berlin Airport on April 25, 45. Not by plane, walking.

They were engaged from April 26 up to May 2, sometime fighting alongwith Hitelrjugend groups, sometime with remnants of the Waffen SS Division Nordland.

In the Berlin inferno, the French will destroy 62 Soviet tanks in 7 days, plus an unaccounted number of Russian soldiers.

On May 2, 30 survivors are left. 270 MIA or dead. Haupsturmfuhrer Henri Fenet (1919 - 2002) is among the survivors. He doesn't know yet that, on April 29, he was awarded the Knight Cross of the Iron Cross, probably the last Knight Cross awarded in Berlin. He managed, as well as few other French Waffen SS, to survive the Russian and French jails.

He passed in 2002, still adamently supporting his stand during WW2. I am not trying here to make an apology of the French Waffen SS but, to do what they have done, knowing that everything was lost, those men had balls. *Big* balls. Whatever we may think about their political cause, this is to be remembered. May they rest in peace.

[Dackel Staffel]

Hi Sid,

One thing I am always looking for is a book covering French military reaction to the various war scares between the remilitarisation of the Rhineland in 1936 and the outbreak of war in 1939. I would particularly like to see details of French deployments at the height of the Munich Crisis. Have you any ideas?

Rien que ça !
Well, it's serious things we're talking about. The main question is what was the real power of the french army in september 1938.
1) Don't forget France had two threats : Germany and Italy. Of course one of them was more deadly than the other but they were allied.
2) 1938 is just 2 years after the "Front Populaire" and the hard strikes of 1936.
3) the french armement industry wasn't ready for mass production especially in the aviation ( too many small factories unable to produce a large number of planes)
4) Bad organisation : example the planes getting out from the factories weren't armed. Their weapons were installed by the Armée de l'Air's workshops.
5) Demography : lack of young men.
6) The french people didn't want an another bloody war with Germany. Daladier fought in Verdun.

I'am going to search in my books if I can find something for you.

For the french air force
In January 1938 France had 1 510 planes :
439 fighters, 745 bombers and 326 reconnaissance aircrafts
In september 1938 France had 1 509 planes
493 fighters, 644 bombers and 340 reconnaissance aircrafts
In december 1938 France had 1 670 planes
493 fighters, 614 bombers and 520 reconnaissance aircrafts

But don't dream, a lot of planes were already obsolete. In 1938, the best french fighter was the MS 406 and it was outclassed by the Me 109. The french general ( chief ot the Armée de l'Air created in 1933) Vuillemin was very pessimistic in 1938 in a case of war with Germany. He told his "doubts" on the french air force against the Luftwaffe to Daladier. he has visited Germany ( invited by Milch in august 1938) and saw the Luftwaffe.

So long.
P.S : don't know the number of planes in the french navy.

[Le Page]

Forgive me if most of you are already familiar with this, but a comprehensive work which includes much detailed info on the Berlin streetfighting is Pour l'Europe by Robert Forbes (in English). At least one chapter concerns the Berlin defense. I forgot to mention the book is about Charlemagne and the so-called "Sturmbrigade Frankreich" (a term Mabire made up).

Out of print, the book is already up over $200 last time I looked.

[Le Page]

Just found out that Helion are reprinting it this year! Cop it when you can!

[sid guttridge]

........or buy some real military history instead........

Sid.

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Sid,

Your reply caught my attention, I don't know anything about that book.
So I googled a bit and found that about the book content:

"The formation of the French Division of the Waffen-SS called 'Charlemagne', including brief histories of its main component parts, namely the LVF and Milice française"
http://www.helion.co.uk/product.php?xProd=71523

I am not so fluent in english, but calling the LVF and the Milice "components" of the Charlemagne looks very strange to me. OK, many SS volunteers "came from" LVF, Milice, NSKK, etc... but, after the training, they were SS, forget the origin.

Is it that sort of things that makes you doubtful about R. Forbes?
Thanks in advance

[Le Page]

[quote]........or buy some real military history instead........
[quote]

When a guy tries to bait people in a forum, what's he called? There's a phrase for it but I've forgotten.

In regards the above book, I guess all the innumerable interviews and lengthy correspondence with veterans don't count, huh Mr Guttridge.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Laurent,

I am not familiar with the book either. For all I know it might be extremely well researched and written.

However, I am familiar with the subject and it does not strike me that the fate of 300 French W-SS men in Berlin is main stream military history.

How small and insignificant does a Waffen-SS unit have to be before it no longer gets some sychophantic, under critical author hanging on the veterans' every word?

Cheers,

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Le Page,

"Innumerable interviews and lengthy correspondence with veterans" however well and impartially conducted, cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Perhaps you can explain the importance to military history of the misadventures of an insignificant group of Frenchmen who had no influence on events? Why, exactly, are they deserving of a book in English when most army panzer divisions with real achievements to their names haven't got one yet?

I ask you in all seriousness the question I posed rhetorically to Laurent: How small and insignificant does a Waffen-SS unit have to be before it no longer gets some sychophantic, under-critical author hanging on the veterans' every word?

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. The phrase you are looking for is "sh1t stirrer".