Any chance for the 12 SS Panzer division to beat the Allies

HunterSeeker · Post by **HunterSeeker** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:27 pm

Was there any chance for the 12th panzer division to counter the Allied forces in France during the summer of 1944 ?

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:56 pm

WOW you have some weird questions. To counter??? They countered allied forces - or not?
Or do you mean stop, beat, drive back? Why just the 12.SS?
The 2.Pz.Div. was a more professional formation and had more tanks on hand in early June..

The chance of stopping the invasion was close to 0 looking at the german forces, supplies, supply lines, ammo etc... etc..
Movements during the day were impossible for the germans. The number of allied tanks and artillery was overwhelming.
So not even the in your oppinion so heroic, elite, superduper 12.SS-Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend" would have been able to stop the allied invasion. Oh..wait.. Yes if the division would have had 200 000 men, 3000 tanks, unlimited ammo and lots of reserves.

\Christoph

Gebirgsjaeger · Post by **Gebirgsjaeger** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:35 am

Hallo!

Of course the 2. PzDiv was better, it was from Austria

(don´t take me too serious again Christoph). I guess the 2. PzDiv was too far away from the invasion beaches on DDay, wasn´t it?

I guess the best chances would have been with the 21. PzDiv. It was closest to the invasion beaches and the airborne drops at the orne. In fact it´s unit have been alerted fast enough but the order to attack came far to late - sometime in the late afternoon as I remember.

Some tanks of the 21. PzDiv actually broke thru to the beaches of Sword but had to retreat again because they had no infantry cover at all and their flanks were wide open to counterattack.

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:22 am

Gebirgsjaeger, nowhere in his post I can see anything that he asks about D-Day. You? He speaks about Summer 1944.

And of course I know.... a division which was formed from some experienced cadre personnel and young, politically blinded teenagers is much, much more powerfull than a division which fought in Poland, France, Greece, Russia since more than 4 years. Keep on dreaming! (Please take me serious)

\Christoph

stab131 · Post by **stab131** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:15 pm

You ask: Was there any chance for the 12th panzer division to counter the Allied forces in France during the summer of 1944?

No, not a snowballs chance in hell and here's one reason why:

As you pose your question 1 division against all allied forces, so take 12,000 or so German troops against 500,000 or so Allied troops. So each German would have to kill 41.66 Allied soldiers before the German becomes a casualty.

How do 12,000 Super-trooper Germans engage the whole might of the Allies in France during the summer of 1944? How do they gain air superiority so the 12th can move at will? How much ground must each individual Soldat defend?

Simply put, it can't be done.

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:39 pm

Gentlemen, gentlemen - such sniping. Let's give HunterSeeker the benefit of the doubt and address the question: could the 12th SS Pz Div have prevailed in its various battles in Normandy (which were primarily fought with the Canadian Army). That's not an unreasonable question.

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:24 pm

PaulJ wrote:Gentlemen, gentlemen - such sniping. Let's give HunterSeeker the benefit of the doubt and address the question: could the 12th SS Pz Div have prevailed in its various battles in Normandy (which were primarily fought with the Canadian Army). That's not an unreasonable question.

Well, what is the meaning/sense behind such a question? Such nonsense questions nearly all dealing with the oh so mighty Waffen-SS appear more frequently from mostly the same "kind" (in lack of other words) of persons.
It would be like asking if a hammer can destroy a tank? - yes if the hammer would weigh 60tons.
Could the 12-SS counter the allies? - yes if it..... blah blah blah... nonsense, meaningless, out of reality etc...

\Christoph

Gebirgsjaeger · Post by **Gebirgsjaeger** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:27 pm

Christoph Awender wrote:Gebirgsjaeger, nowhere in his post I can see anything that he asks about D-Day. You? He speaks about Summer 1944.

And of course I know.... a division which was formed from some experienced cadre personnel and young, politically blinded teenagers is much, much more powerfull than a division which fought in Poland, France, Greece, Russia since more than 4 years. Keep on dreaming! (Please take me serious)

\Christoph

Christoph, what makes you think that a division that fought for such a long period HAS to be better than others? And let me remind you - the only major campaign in the west in summer 1944 that both the 12. SS PzDiv and 2. PzDiv participated in WAS in fact Normandy!!!!!!!

If I go with what you said then the German 1. InfanterieDiv would have been the best in the German Army, just because it fought for the longest time in the war? This is nonsense!!!

You seem to be using facts just as they suit you!

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:49 pm

Gebirgsjaeger wrote:Christoph, what makes you think that a division that fought for such a long period HAS to be better than others? And let me remind you - the only major campaign in the west in summer 1944 that both the 12. SS PzDiv and 2. PzDiv participated in WAS in fact Normandy!!!!!!!

Hä... First you say that the 2.Pz.Div. was too far away from the beach on D-Day. HunterSeeker spoke about summer 1944 NOT from just D-Day. Then you speak like you always meant the campaign in summer 1944. Whats your problem? Are you the defender of all and everyone against the evil, arrogant, Besserwisser Christoph??

If they were lucky the early divisions had well grown, experienced leaders. Be it group leaders which started with the division in Poland 1939 and fought all campaigns with the unit. Be it NCO´s which were in the division and became company leaders or higher officers. Be it supply officers, doctors, staff personnel, teaching personnel in the Divisionskampfschulen etc.... The effectiveness of a formation was highly depending on a well experienced NCO and officer corps.
The 2.Pz.Div. was a highly professional formation with personnel which was with the division from the beginning.
A newly formed formation although they were given some experienced personnel from other units will never be such a homgeneous unit like a formation which grew from the beginning.

If I go with what you said then the German 1. InfanterieDiv would have been the best in the German Army, just because it fought for the longest time in the war? This is nonsense!!!

You are correct this is nonsense. You would have to look at the various formations to make an assumption. How it developed, which elements were used to form other divisions etc.. etc..

You seem to be using facts just as they suit you!

Oh really? Where exactly?

\Christoph

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:11 pm

HunterSeeker

Ahem...perhaps you should pose the question a bit differently and with more specifics and we can address.

HJ was closely involved in the fighting as of about D+1. From there it opposed (with other formations) a series of powerful British offensives and made a rather a name for itself. But each of these offensives was a major battle so its hard to address such an open ended question?

Where do you wish to start?

Christoph - 2 Pz is a favorite unit of mine but I have difficulty finding specifics about its service in Normandy - appears that despite good equipment and personnel it rarely if ever fought as a complete unit - do you have more information on that?

cheers
Reb

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:45 pm

Hello Reb!

As you said there is not much about the fightings in Normandie of the division.
The only surviving sources are "Zustandsberichte" for this time.
The only published source I know: Franz-Joseph Strauss, Geschichte der 2. (Wiener) Panzer Division (Vowinkel, Neckargemünd 1977). doesn´t give much info also on this time.

With the next chance the KTB of XXXXVII.Pz.K. we have also bad luck... it is lost from June 1944 ( :-) ) on.
We have luck with the next higher formation (A.O.K.7) where I have KTB´s of some staff positions but I can remember that the info on the 2.Pz.Div. is not "amazing".

\Christoph

Gebirgsjaeger · Post by **Gebirgsjaeger** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:58 am

Christoph Awender wrote: Hä... First you say that the 2.Pz.Div. was too far away from the beach on D-Day. HunterSeeker spoke about summer 1944 NOT from just D-Day. Then you speak like you always meant the campaign in summer 1944. Whats your problem? Are you the defender of all and everyone against the evil, arrogant, Besserwisser Christoph??

Christoph,

I´m not wanting to warn anyone and I don´t understand your outrage. You want to have the right to talk freely to everyone and often correct people - which is ok. But often when someone is not your opinion in my eyes you start to behave like a little hurt princess.

My point was: IF someone could have beaten the Allies in SUMMER 1944 in NORMANDY than LOGICALLY the best time and place would have been as soon after the landings as possible (I agree with you that the whole discussion is nonsense). And if we take this then the only major armored unit near the beaches was indeed the 21.PzDiv! The 12. SS PzDiv was quite far away and the 2. PzDiv even more, as you should know for sure.

We all know how history went and I don´t want to discuss Ifs and Whens.

GJ

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:51 am

Gebirgsjaeger wrote:Christoph,

I´m not wanting to warn anyone and I don´t understand your outrage. You want to have the right to talk freely to everyone and often correct people - which is ok. But often when someone is not your opinion in my eyes you start to behave like a little hurt princess.

Probably because many years ago this was a research forum where it was possible to gather excellent information from. Now a high percentage of threads is just nonsense.

My point was: IF someone could have beaten the Allies in SUMMER 1944 in NORMANDY than LOGICALLY the best time and place would have been as soon after the landings as possible (I agree with you that the whole discussion is nonsense). And if we take this then the only major armored unit near the beaches was indeed the 21.PzDiv! The 12. SS PzDiv was quite far away and the 2. PzDiv even more, as you should know for sure.

What has this to do with the initial question? He is talking about a single division to "counter the allied forces". His question is not about which, division, when and how.

Was there any chance for the 12th panzer division to counter the Allied forces in France during the summer of 1944 ?

We all know how history went and I don´t want to discuss Ifs and Whens.

Thats what I was saying.

\Christoph

Gebirgsjaeger · Post by **Gebirgsjaeger** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:01 am

Christoph Awender wrote: Why just the 12.SS?
The 2.Pz.Div. was a more professional formation and had more tanks on hand in early June..

\Christoph

It was YOU, Christoph, who started bringing other divisions into the game...

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:24 am

You are really trying hard Gebirgsjäger.
HunterSeeker is just another one of these sterotypic "Waffen-SS cool", "Waffen-SS best" members.
By pointing out that there was a in my oppinion more effective division in Normandy I wanted to get some comments from him why he singles out the 12th SS. As usual he fails to comment.

\Christoph