Hard Question: 1945 Panzer Div. Strength

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hey Guys, I'm not kidding, this isn't a question for the faint-hearted! My limited understanding is that a Panzer Division strength was recorded in several ways:

Iststarke: the actual number of troops in the unit, in both fighting and non-fighting elements.
Gefechtsstarke: combat strength
Verpflegungsstarke: which appears to be the same as Iststarke.
Sollstarke: the full number of men in the unit at the time of establishment.

So, my question is--What was the planned strength of a Panzer Division organized according to the 1945 TO&E in these categories???

Best Regards, D

[charlie don't surf]

I think I might be able to post a Sollstärke to & e later.

regards

[Christoph Awender]

Hello David!

Some help.
Click for the theoretical Gliederung Pz.Div.45

- in brackets difference to Pz.Div.44

Kopfstärke: 11 422 (-1791)
LKW: 1080 (-118)
other vehicles: 1091 (-99)
Tanks (incl.Flak-, Berge-Pz.): 54 (-111)
SPW: 90 (-198)
Rad-Spähwagen: 16
Jagdpanzer: 22
le.Pz.Haub.18/2: 12
schw.Pz.Haub.18/1: 6
le.F.H.18 (motZ): 13
s.F.H.18 (motZ): 8
10cm Kan.(motZ): 4
schw.Inf.Gesch.(Sf): - (-12)
schw.Inf.Gesch.(motZ): 8 (+8)
s.Gr.Wf.(12cm): 18
m.Gr.Wf.(8cm): 48 (-4)
8,8cm Flak (motZ): 12
3,7cm Flak (motZ): 9
2cm Flak-Vierling (Sf): 6 (-3)
2cm Flak-Drilling (Bord): 12 (+12)
2cm Flak (Sf): 4
2cm Flak (Bord): 3 (-29)
2cm Flak (motZ): 37 (+12)
2cm Geb.Flak: - (-9)

Kopfstärken:
Divisionskommando: 420
gem.Pz.Rgt.:
- Stab mit Stabs-Kp.: 106
- I. (Pz.Abt.): 767
- II. (SPW-Abt.): 488
PzGrenRgt.
Rgts.Stab m.Stabs-Kp.(mot.): 126
Gef.Kol.(mot.): 98
Stab I.PzGrenBtl.(mot): 48
1.PzGrenKp.: 117
2.PzGrenKp.: 117
3.PzGrenKp.: 117
M.G.Kp.(mot.): 121
s.Kp.(mot.): 127
VersKp.(mot.): 77
II.Btl. as I.Btl.
s.I.G.Kp.(motZ): 102
PzGrenPiKp.(mot.): 144
PzAufklAbt.: 648
PzJgAbt.: 522
PzArtRgt.: 1367
HFlakArtAbt.: 440
PzPiBtl.: 716
PzNachrAbt.: 378
PzFeldersBtl.: 173
PzDivNachschTr.: 702
KfParkTruppen: 277
SanTruppen: 334
VetTruppen: 24
VerwaltTruppen: 206
Feldpostamt(mot.): 18

fighting elements of Pz.Div.45: 9861
Total manpower: 11 422

hope this helps,
Christoph

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Christoph! Heh Heh! Christoph to the rescue--just like the old days!!!!
I posted the question because I was having problems absorbing the reported strengths for "Muncheberg" from the "Muncheberg" Thread on TRF. Please look at these figures:

March 17th-- "Combat strength", 2,867
April 15th-- "Combatant strength", 1,986
May 30-- "Strength", 3,000

And, there is this post by Kamen Nevenkin:

"On 3/12/45, a total strength of 6,836 men was reported by Division Muncheberg. This number was almost 100% equal to the Division's authorized strength."

Well Christoph, I admit to being a bit rusty, I've not had the opportunity to look at this research in a long time. But the numbers still bother me.
What do you think? Am I missing something obvious? It may be that "Muncheberg" didn't even have the units authorized for a 1945 Panzer Division.
Very Best Regards, David

[Christoph Awender]

Hello David!

According to the order of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt.Nr.I/1600/45 g.Kdos. from 25.3.1945 for all Panzerdivisions the Gliederung Pz.Div.45 was in order. Excepted was the 232.Pz.Div. (Feld-Ausb.Div.) which kept its special Gliederung. An addition to this order says that formations which cannot reach the authorized strength (men, material) are to be organized as the so called "Kampfgruppe Pz.Div.45". According to the Ia of the 6.Pz.Div. at this time these orders did not even reach all existing tank formations. He says that for example the 6.PD never got this order to reorganize although the official records show it organized as a Pz.Div.45.

Different to a Pz.Div.45 the Kampfgruppe Pz.Div.45
- just 1 Pz.Gren.Rgt.(mot.)
- One of the le.Pz.Aufkl.Kp. (Volkswagen) in the Aufkl.Abt. missing
- II.Abt. of the Pz.Art.Rgt. missing, III.Abt. organized: Stab u.Stabsbttr., 2 le.FeldHaubBttr. (each 6 guns), 1 s.FeldHaubBttr. (6 guns)
- verst.PzNachrKp. instead of a Abt.
- One KraftfKp.(120to) missing
- Stabs and StabsKp. Kdr.d.Pz.NachschTr. minimized for 30% personnel and material
- San and Verwalt.Truppen slightly minimized

This means that a Kpfgr.Pz.Div.45 had 1918 Panzergrenadiere (men)
All fighting elements a man-strength of: 7262 which is 2599 less than a Pz.Div.45.
Supply elements man-strength: 1340
This makes a total authorized strength of a Kpfgr.Pz.Div.45: 8602

This comes a little bit closer to the provided numbers,

regards,
Christoph

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Thank You Christoph! I will have to compare Muncheberg's actual composition with the OOBs you've provided. Still in all, it doesn't seem like Muncheberg even came close to its authorized strength. An this with the Russians on the Oder!!!
Very Best Regards, David

[charlie don't surf]

That's strange because I've heard that it was one of the few units who actually was at full strength...

regards

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Charlie, yes, I've read that as well, but the numbers I've been able to find certainly don't seem to point that way. I think there is still much mytery about our little Panzer Division! Best Regards, David

[charlie don't surf]

Either way it's going to be interesting to find out about the truth.

best regards/ daniel

[Christoph Awender]

I strongly doubt that there was a single unit at full strength at this time. What source does this assumption come from? Maybe he refers to tanks, SPW´s, vehicles, men in combat formations, just the men in the mixed tank regiment, just the men of the PzGrenRgter. etc.....
A fully equiped, maned division is highly unrealistic. So who said that it was at full strength and what was his source?

Christoph

[charlie don't surf]

At the time being i'm unable to give you that source Cristoph. I just remember it since I went through a lot of müncheberg material. However it's not impossible that it was one of the better pz div's at that time. I presume that you've read through all my posts on the subject on trf, maybe the statement can be found there.

regards/ daniel

[Christoph Awender]

Hello!

I must admit that I didn´t follow the Muncheberg thread as it is generally interesting but absolutely not my area of research right now. HAve to keep my time and brain free for my projects. So it was just a oppinion of me not to doubt the provided numbers... I think Kamen also used original sources from the BAMA and mine are too. So the nearest solution would be that the statement full strength is wrong.

Christoph

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Christoph, I think you're right, "full strength" is probably a phrase that can't be used about late war German units.
But more importantly, I sincerely thank you for taking the trouble to help. Charlie (Daniel) and I will have a closer look at this issue. You've given us plenty to think about and, most importantly, standards to measure things by.
I don't know why, after all this time and exposure to the literature, but I found the troop strengths shocking. It's a fairly sobering thought to realize the disparity between Soviet Armies on the Oder Front and the defenders. Very Best Regards, David

[Kamen Nevenkin]

Hi !

I'm reserching the Panzer Divisions for many years and I came to
conclusion that there very few people in the whole world with
clear understanding about this topic. I'm not claiming that my
person is among them, but, I keep trying.

First three panzer divisions were created during mid 30's. There
were no real armored divisions(except some ideas on paper) in the
armies of other contries during that time, thats why german high
command, despite some myths, decided to use own way for the creaton
of such formations. Please note, also, that german high command had
very conservative state of mind and prefered to use experience gained
by own forces during the WWI. German high command used, probably, the
late-WWI infantry division(so called Sturm Division) as a base for the
developing of the organizational structure of the future panzer divisions.

During 1934/35 the first permanent organization of a panzer division(on
paper) was created and the first three panzer divisions(1.,2.,3.) were
to be organized according to it. The main point in this structure was
the close ratio between main three arms(Tanks, Infantry, Artillery) -
2 : 1 : 1(4 Btl : 2 Btl : 2 Btl). The supporting arms(Antitank, Scouting,
Reccon, Pioniere, Signals) were also in close ratio to the main arms. Please,
note that the armored divisions created by GB, France and USSR in late
30's and early 40's had very big disproportion ratio between main arms
and some of them had very low number of supporting arms.

During the first years of the war panzer divisions had no uniform
organization. Why? Some explenations:

1. Lack of armament(Almost half of the panzers divisions used some captured
equipment)
2. Lack of motor vehicles(15.PzD and 21.PzD were not able to create a second
Sch.Regiment because of the lack of motor transport)
3. According to pre-war mobilization plans of the Heer, Panzer Divisions were
to be ready for combat 12 hours after the declaration of a general mobilization.
4. Panzer Divisions were always under permanent alert(Try to remember how
many times the german invasion in France was postponed)

In February 1943 Guderian became the head of Panzerwaffe and his first goal
was to create an uniform organization for all of the panzer divisions. During
1943 many new KStN were issued and the reorganization of almost every
panzer division was ordered. On 24.9.43 a document was issued which shows
the first uniform organization of a german panzer division since 1938 -
so-called "Panzer Division'43". Which are the major points in this document?

- When this document was issued almost every panzer division, thanks to the
KStN's which were issued earlier, was already organized according to it.

- The main future of the document was that it shows to everybody( who had
an access to it) the ratio between the units(enheiten) and the actual
authorized organization of each unit. This document DOES NOT SHOWS THE
KStN's VALID FOR EACH UNIT. THIS MEANS THAT THE DOCUMENT SHOWS ONLY
THE PRINCIPLES ACCORDING TO WHICH THE PANZER DIVISIONS WERE TO BE
ORGANIZED. Please note that KStN's were changed very friquently.

When a unit was to be created (or reorganized), OrgAbt/GenStbdH had
issued a special order which contains the exact KStN for every sub-unit.
For example, 4.PzD and 9.PzD were authorized to have PzII Luchs instead
of leSPW in their PzAAbt. PzAAbt 3 of 3.PzD were authorized to
have AufklPz 38(t) instead of leSPW. HFlakAbt of 26.PzD was authorized
to have self-propeled 8.8cm-Flak. The same division lacked its organic
PzJgAbt. 14., 16. and 24.PzD were not authorized to have an organic
PzJgAbt also. PzLehrDiv had four PzGBtl equiped with SPW instead of one.
There so many other examples.

On 18.1.45 an order for the reorganization of both Fuehrer-Brigades
(FBB and FGB) was issued. According to this order is writen that both divisions
were to be organized as "Panzer Division'44" with shortened number of
motor vehicles("gekurzt. LKW-soll"). Each division was to be organized
with one PzGR(with three Btl), a PzR with only one Abt and a PzSpKp instead
of PzAAbt. This fact shows that such organization was not a
violation of of the pinciples of the "Panzer-Division'4x"-uniform organization.
Why? Beacuse all of the units which represent main and supporting arms in
"Panzer-Division'44" scheme were present. As well the ratio between them.

Soll-staerke of each division was a sum of Soll-st. of all KStN's according
to which this division was to be organized. 1.PzD was never authorized to
have PzFla-Zug, but untill Oct'44 it had four ArtAbt in its PzArtR(73). This
means that the sum of its authorized personal was different in comperison
with other divisions. Lack of PzFla-Zug was never calculated as a personal
shortfall because the division was never authorized to have such unit. And
the personal of the additional ArtAbt was never calculated as overstrenght
beacuse this division was AUTHORIZED BY OrgAbt/GenStbdH TO HAVE SUCH UNIT.
You can simply connect this example with these mentioned above and make
some conclusions.

Hope this finally explains why PzD"M" was authorized to have Soll-st of
aprox. 7000 men.

Have a nice day,
Kamen

[Qvist]

Christoph - I note that there are some discrepancies between the TOE you provide and one I have seen quoted from Nafziger here :

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 34&start=0

One thing - David provided some numbers referred to as "combat strength". Now, as we know there were two different definitions of such in use - Kampfstärke and Gefechtsstärke. One included, as I understand, just combat troops in combat units, the other all troops in combat units. Your combat strength numbers are obviously the latter. Could David's numbers possibly be the former?

cheers