Guards Brigades

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Fri May 14, 2004 11:24 am

Hello Gentlemen,
I'm looking for infos about the right number of Guards Brigades used by the British Army along the various fronts durung W.W. Two.
I was able to find an history, by osprey, of the Guards Arm. Division but nothing about the autonomous brigades.
Thanks for the help

EC

Martin Schenkel · Post by **Martin Schenkel** » Fri May 14, 2004 8:08 pm

Hi Enrico,

Here is some info.

5th Guards Armoured Brigade:
Formed in the UK Sep/41. Served with Guards Armoured Division in NW Europe.

6th Guards Tank Brigade:
Formed in the UK Sep/41. Initialy served with Guards Armoured Division as 6th Guards Armoured Brigade. With the re-organisation of Armoured Divisions in Jan/43, it was redesignated an independent Tank Brigade. Arrived in Normandy in Jul/44, and served mostly with 12th British Corps in NW Europe. The Brigade was re-designated 'Armoured' in Feb/45, although it retained its infantry tanks and independent support role.

1st Guards Infantry Brigade:
A pre-war regular Brigade with 1st Infantry Division. Served in France and Belgium Sep/39 to Jun/40. Arrived in Tunisia with 78th Infantry Division in Nov/42. It then joined 6th Armoured Division in Mar/43, and fought with the division for the rest of the war. The Brigade arrived in Italy in Feb/44, and fought throughout the Italian campaign.

7th Guards Infantry Brigade:
A pre-war regular Brigade with 3rd Infantry Division. Served in France and Belgium Sep/39 to May/40. Broken up in Sep/41. HQ used for Support Group of Guards Armoured Division.

20th Guards Brigade:
Formed in the UK Apr/40. Went on holidays to Boulogne 22-23 May/1940

Broken up in Sep/41. HQ used for 5th Guards Armoured Brigade.

24th Guards Infantry Brigade:
Formed in the UK Feb/40. Fought in Norway Mar to Jun/40. Assigned to 1st Infantry Division Dec/42. Arrived in Tunisia Mar/43. Arrived in Italy Dec/43 and fought throughout the Italian campaign, becoming an independent Brigade in Mar/44.

32nd Guards Infantry Brigade:
Formed in the UK Oct/41. Served with Guards Armoured Division in NW Europe.

33rd Guards Infantry Brigade:
Formed in the UK Oct/41. Served with London garrison until broken up in Oct/43.

201st Guards Motor Brigade:
Formed in Egypt Mar/41 as 22nd Guards Infantry Brigade, from 22nd Infantry Brigade. Renamed 200th Guards Brigade Jan/42. Fought heavily in North-African battles as an independent Brigade, until captured at Tobruk in Jun/42. The Brigade had been renamed 201st Guards Brigade shortly before its capture, and was reformed as such in Egypt Aug/42. The Brigade was rebuilt in Syria from Sep/42 to Feb/43 when it rejoined 8th Army for the final battles in North-Africa. Landed at Salerno 9/Sep/43 with 56th (London) Division, and continued to fight in Italy until withdrawn to UK in Apr/44.

If you want more info (commanders, units, detailed dates, etc.), email me, or you might want to find this book: "Orders of Battle in the Second World War 1939-1945", by Lt-Col. HF Joslen (1960).

nigelfe · Post by **nigelfe** » Sat May 15, 2004 12:29 am

Not all were 'pure' Guards Bdes, some had battalions of line infantry from time to time. 24 Gds Bde spent the final year of the war under command 6 South African Armd Div, this was a result of the addition of a second infantry bde to armd bdes in Italy.

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Sat May 15, 2004 10:39 am

Thank you very much, gentlemen, I was looking for these infos since years.
A last detail: what was the composition of the 201 Br. on June 1942 and were the 1st, 24th and the new 201st Br. in Tunisia all "pure " brigades?
How many battalions of Guards were formed during WWII?
With renewed thanks EC

Martin Schenkel · Post by **Martin Schenkel** » Sat May 15, 2004 11:32 am

At the time of its capture in Jun/42, the 201st Guards Brigade was composed of the 2nd Bn Scots Guards, and 3rd Bn Coldstream Guards.

In Tunisia, the Brigades were composed as follows:

201st Guards Brigade:
3rd Bn Coldstream Guards
2nd Bn Scots Guards
6th Bn Grenadier Guards

1st Guards Brigade:
3rd Bn Grenadier Guards
2nd Bn Coldstream Guards
2nd Bn Hampshire Regiment (replaced by 3rd Bn Welch Guards in Mar/43)

24th Guards Brigade:
1st Bn Scots Guards
1st Bn Irish Guards
5th Bn Grenadier Guards

In total, the Guards Regiments contributed the following number of Battalions in WW2:

Coldstream Guards: 6 Bns
Grenadier Guards: 6 Bns
Irish Guards: 3 Bns
Scots Guards: 4 Bns
Welch Guards: 3 Bns

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Sat May 15, 2004 12:18 pm

Wow! Thank you very much. Just a detail, anyway. I believed the British brigades had three battalions. Why 201st had only two in June 1942? EC

Martin Schenkel · Post by **Martin Schenkel** » Sat May 15, 2004 3:12 pm

The 201st Guards Brigade is officially listed as being captured on 20/Jun/42. A third Bn (9th Bn, Rifle Brigade) is listed as being under command from 14/Jan/42 until 4/Jun/42. I have seen several instances of Guards Brigades with only 2 Bns. Guards Battalions seemed to move around between Brigades a fair amount, and there were often times when only two Bns are listed. I think this had to do with the small number of Guards units available, as well as the smaller replacement pool available for those units.

Kommandeur · Post by **Kommandeur** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:41 am

Hi

I just ran a search for "201st Guards Motor Brigade Group", and found this thread ...

I'm curious to know if these brigades (and 201st in particular) had supporting anti-tank or artillery units attached, either from time-to-time as operations required, or permanently.

Does anyone have more info on OoBs or ToEs?

Thanks in advance

DK

nigelfe · Post by **nigelfe** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:29 am

For most of the war UK bdes had inf and/or armd bns/regts, bde HQ and its def pl, sy sect and that was about it. For the first year or so most inf bdes were supposed to have a bde atk coy, manned by inf. There was a short lived introduction of 'bde gps', which implied a 'slice' of supporing arms and services under command. There were also one or two independent bdes that were similarly endowed (29 Inf is an example - its surprising that MoD's policy of historical numbering hasn't resulted in a 29 Bde in the current orbat). Some of the independent armd bdes also had some supporting arms and services units semi permanently assigned to them. Care is needed with terms like 'attached', it's really a heading (as in 'atts & dets') it doesn't actually define a relationship in the Brit Army. Relationships in WW2 were basically either 'support' or 'under command'.

Kommandeur · Post by **Kommandeur** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:26 am

Thanks nigelfe

Point noted regarding my terminology

It's the "Brigade Group" term that makes me think there were more than infantry units operating under its command structure.

I would just like to say what an excellent resource your web site is ... I was there this morning while trying to see if any of the units you list were ever indicated as having been 'supporting' or 'under command' of 201st Guards.

DK

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:57 am

DK, I know what you mean - its more "organic" than most armies, but at the same time much less "all arms" LOL Only the British could come up with a system that wasn't quite one thing or another .....

phylo

nigelfe · Post by **nigelfe** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:38 am

Actually the system was very clear, all units were under command of a formation, and all formations were under command of another. However for some parts of the army 'command' was not necessarily the optimum solution, centralised command is sometimes the best answer but decentralised control is also important. The Brits didn't make the mistake that Germany made in WW1 and the US in WW2 (probably aping the the Germans) of getting totlally hung up on the notion of 'unity of command' which then got in the way of centralised control at a higher level when that was needed, or having a unit under command of one formation being in support of a neighbouring peer formation.

All the 'organic' stuff is best left with the mushrooms. The notion that to be 'all arms' means that eveything has to be broken up and distributed out is, of course, total nonsense. The derogotary Brit term for this is 'pennypacketing', its always a temptation because it seems so 'logical' and avoids the need for thinking. And one that the Brit army succumbed to in N Africa until Monty re-introduced good practice.

The British system worked extremely well. The point is that the division was the basic combat formation, this meant that brigades could be task organised with divisional assets in support, although sometimes 'command' over divisional (or higher assets) was temporaily assigned to bdes, but mostly only support unless the bde had a very independent mssion. Of course many groupings became semi-permanent, for example a divisional field regiment would normally always be in support of the same bde, and the btys of that regt would normally be in support of the same bn for sustained periods. Its particularly important for arty and the need for concentraion of mobile firpower, which means that deployment usually has to be centrally controlled.

The bde gp experiment only lasted a few months for most but there were some extended life gps. The assignment of divisional units to bde gps can be obtained from Joslen.

201 Gds antecedents were as follows:

22 Inf Bde formed Egypt 11 Feb 41
20 Mar 41 redesignated 22 Gds Bde
14 Jan 42 redesignated 200 Gds Bde
6 Apr 42 redesgnated 200 Gds Mot Bde Gp
25 May 42 redesignated 201 Gds Mot Bde Gp
20 Jun 42 much of bde captured at Tobruk
14 Aug 42 reformed as 201 Bds Mot Bde

In the Bde Gp period its units were 2 SG, 3 Coldm Gds, 9RB, 2RHA, 1 Fd Sqn, Bde Coy RASC, 5 Lt Fd Amb, Bde Pro Sec, Bde Postal Unit. However, after refomation it also appears to have had its own ST, Pro, Med and Wksps, probably because it was in effect independent of a division, although somtimes under command of various divisions.

This seems to be the pattern with other bdes that had an extended existence as a bde gp, the gp did not have arty and engr units. It made sense to give these independent bde gps their own logistic slice but arms units were kept firmly centralised and assigned as necessary, although there seem to have been extended support affiliations. Sigs is a bit of a mystery but they must have had a sigs coy from a regt somewhere.

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:56 am

Nigel, the idea that units get split off independently and never fully reintegrated has ALWAYs plagued an organised army lol. Look at the Notitia Dignitatum, the 5th century list of units in the Roman Army in the West; two thirds of the units named have been small units chopped off under an officer for some reason at some time to operate under independent orders....then took an identity of their own, and their file filled in the original unit! In those days were known as "vellixations" cos they operated under a different standard than their original parent unit, a abbreviated "vellixium" rather than the long-outmoded eagle or its successors.

Nowadays - meaning the 20th century, its bad paractice not to reintegrate asap, but throughout history it had ONE advantage, it left the indepentdent unit free to recruit and fill its ranks locally of course, so it was a fast way of making up battle losses. Especially in the massed "human wave" (sorry guys! LMAO) battles of the Late Roman Empire, or later the 17th-18th-19th centuries. But in modern terms just imagine hiving off an organic AT battalion, or arty battery....if its been moved off somewhere, and doesnt come back, it takes a strong theatre commander with a real sense of organisation like Monty to get it back in shape again...or how do you go about getting hold of a replacement battery???

nigelfe · Post by **nigelfe** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:05 pm

There's a difference between units and formations. Some armies have tended to fix the units constituting a formation others haven't. The British in WW2 tended to the latter. However, they didn't generally split up a unit then make the sub-units into new unts sometime down the track. The obvious exception would be 414 bty that went to Burma with 7 Armd Bde and subseqeuntly became 14 RHA. There were some other extended detachmants of sub-units, most usually arty because it virtually never happened with inf or armd and most of the rest tended to have lots of independnet coy level elements in any case. The obvious inf exceptions were coys of MG bns and div HQ defence coys when these existed but I've not come across any instance of such a company becoming a bn. Of course it probably depended on regimental policy for reforming lost units. RA policy was to immediately create a 5 man cadre from the base depot and subseqently reform the regt on this (except after Malaya when it was only the lost regular regt that reformed).

Kommandeur · Post by **Kommandeur** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:46 pm

Hi nigelfe
Hi phylo-roadking

nigelefe: thank you for the very intersting information. It is as I thought it would be, and it is useful to have informtion about the units involved.

Now ... I wonder if you know if the infantry were 'lorried infantry battalions' or 'motor battalions'? My guess would be a mix, and that the Guards were 'lorried' and the 9 Rifle Brigade 'motor'. But this is only a guess of course.

Thank you again

DK