Joachim Peiper by Jens Westemeier

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Panzerass
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Post by Panzerass »

Actually I did not want to join this discussion about Peiper again, since for me it is clear that he was, also due to the fact that he was so close to Himmler and his staff, directly involved with knowledge about the camps ect. and not only the apolitical soldier lad who just wants to go out and fight for his country.

But the following quotation made me think that I have to express something. Something that might be too trivial to see.
Paddy Keating wrote:Jens Westemeier's book contains the following passage:
This number appears on no SS seniority list, and Peiper disputed ever having been a member of the party. Especially after the war, when he created the picture of apolitical soldier...
Peiper himself told Michael Reynolds in 1967: "I was a Nazi and I remain one...The Germany of today is no longer a great nation, it has become a province of Europe". Reynolds quotes from this interview on Page 260 of his book The Devil's Adjutant.

I would have thought that Westemeier would have read all available interviews of Jochen Peiper as part of his basic research before commencing work upon a biography. Reynolds is hardly an obscure source. As an editor and writer, I have to say that there is no such thing as the perfect narrative but this strikes me as a bit careless on Westemeier's part, given that a cornerstone of Westemeier's apparent attitude to his subject is the question of Peiper's Nazi beliefs.

If a key tenet of Westemeier's narrative is that Peiper denied being a Nazi and that he is a poster boy for revisionists' postwar attempts to whitewash the Waffen-SS, then I think the book is seriously flawed because Peiper himself made it abundantly clear that he not only was a Nazi but remained so more than twenty years after the war.

PK

Well, I think you have to make a difference between "being a Nazi" and being "Nazi and party member".
But we know from the sources (the party application card "Aufnahmeantrag" in German, and the list with all the party members of the LSSAH, posted by Jerome at axis history forum) discovered in the archives that Peiper was a member of the NSDAP now.
So, theoretically, you also could have been not a party member but still be and think like a Nazi.
Maybe Reynolds did ask the wrong questions and not explicitly "Did you join the party?".
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

I know plenty of people of quite extreme views who are not members of any party. Furthermore, the average NSDAP supporter did not hold "extreme" views. Nazi racial and expansionist policies were nothing more than a logical evolution of classic European imperialist attitudes.

As George Santayana observed, "history is a pack of lies about events that never happened told by people who weren't there". Jochen Peiper was a Nazi. He said so himself. That is not the issue. The issue is the way in which Westemeier deals with the question in his narrative.

In any case, Jochen Peiper was a 2nd Lieutenant (SS-Untersturmführer) when posted as Adjutant to Himmler's staff. It is hardly as if Himmler, Wolff, Heydrich and the others turned to him and said: "Hey, Jochen, what do you think we should do about those Jews over there?" or "Should we turn a blind eye when the lads pack a load of natives into a barn and burn it down?".

From Westemeier's viewpoint, it seems that Peiper is to be "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't": Peiper's request to be released for combat duties in the spring of 1940 indicates an glory-seeking opportunist worried that the war would end before he could get his share of booty and medals. His recall from combat duties to resume his adjutant post means that he must be held accountable as a main player in the implementation of genocidal policies.

Was Peiper responsible for his circumstances at the time? Could he have risked compromising his career by refusing the order to report to the staff of the Reichsführer-SS? Formed as an adult and army officer in Hitler's Germany, could he have stood up and shouted: "No, Reichsführer! You cannot let those Jews be shot. It is a war crime! Think of posterity!". Given than they tended to believe that posterity would be theirs for a thousand years, the notion is unrealistic.

It is all too easy to judge men like Jochen Peiper from today's perspective, especially when one is a guilt-ridden German. In the author's case, it seems that he admired Peiper at one time, which suggests that he may have flirted with far right politics as a youngster but is now in denial. That aside, Jens Westemeier is a reserve officer in the Bundeswehr and to have written anything less slanted and hostile to its subject would have carried the risk of being thrown out of the BW.

The issue really isn't about Peiper's Nazi beliefs. He was a Nazi, whether a willing member of the NSDAP or not. He did time on Death Row and time in prison for his beliefs and they ultimately cost him his life. At what point do we back off and murmur to ourselves: there but for the grace of God go I? How sure are you - anyone reading this - that you would have been brave enough to say: No, I refuse to go along with this!. Very, very few people were that brave.

PK
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Post by Annelie »

Excellent

:up:
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Post by KG voss »

It is all too easy to judge men like Jochen Peiper from today's perspective, especially when one is a guilt-ridden German. In the author's case, it seems that he admired Peiper at one time, which suggests that he may have flirted with far right politics as a youngster but is now in denial. That aside, Jens Westemeier is a reserve officer in the Bundeswehr and to have written anything less slanted and hostile to its subject would have carried the risk of being thrown out of the BW
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Post by Panzerass »

I think it is senseless to try it again and again. If you think you are right with your views, okay... but then don't try to bother others with it or condemn them because they have a critical opinion.
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

:shock:

I'm not condemning anyone for having critical views! I am simply questioning the way in which Mr Westemeier treated the question of Jochen Peiper's Nazi beliefs and NSDAP membership in his narrative. There is nothing wrong in expressing critical views, unless one twists the facts to suit the narrative.

Once again...

Jochen Peiper in 1967: "I was a Nazi and I remain one...The Germany of today is no longer a great nation, it has become a province of Europe". (The Devil's Adjutant - Maj Gen (Rtd) Michael Reynolds)

Jens Westemeier in 2007: "…Peiper disputed ever having been a member of the party. Especially after the war, when he created the picture of apolitical soldier...". (Joachim Peiper - J Westemeier).

PK
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Post by TimoWr »

Why is it that people mention Patrick Agte and Michael Reynolds - who's book isn't an actual biography - but never mention James Weingartner and John Bauserman?
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

Once again, I am merely pointing out an apparent contradiction between Mr Westemeier's account and Peiper's own statements in a 1967 newspaper interview, reported by Reynolds in his book. It is nothing personal. I am merely posing a question.

I wonder if Timo Worst and Jens Westemeier - who is sending me furious PMs about "cruxifying" [sic] his book but declining to comment publicly - and others of a similar intellectually repressive mindset are capable of understanding that critical questions about a biographical book hostile to its Waffen-SS subject do not necessarily suggest a pro or neo-Nazi-inclined critic? Nor do they amount to a crucifixion of the book or its author...unless they strike accurately at one of the cornerstones of the narrative, of course.

Readers are invited to believe that Peiper lied about or attempted to conceal his NSDAP membership to avoid jail time. If true, this would suggest a moral weakness and instrinsic dishonesty on Peiper's part, a weakness of character. As Erik points out, why would someone who had already spent time on Death Row - on trumped-up charges based on confessions extracted by torture - and done hard time in jail for his wartime service try to conceal his NSDAP membership when he was so unequivocal about his Nazism in a newspaper interview over twenty years after the end of the war?

Peiper could have been a National Socialist in spirit without wishing to join a party widely seen as run by fat, corrupt "Golden Pheasants" by many young men, particularly the generation who passed through the SS-Junkerschule at Tölz and Braunschweig in the late 1930s. That Himmler had to make an issue of party membership in relation to LSSAH and SS-VT officers is quite illuminating in itself. One detects an inability on the part of authors like Westemeier to grasp the nuances, to read between the lines, so to speak. Peiper could either have been unaware of his administrative induction into the NSDAP alongside other LSSAH and SS-VT officers in 1938 and 1939 or he could have simply decided to refuse to recognise the legitimacy of his membership. There were plenty of Nazis who never joined the party back then, just as there are plenty of Nazis today who prefer not to be members of any movements or parties. Peiper might have opted to be economical with the truth over his NSDAP membership but if so, it cannot have been from any desire on his part to downplay or deny his Nazi beliefs, as the 1967 newspaper interview proves. Westemeier's thesis, therefore, makes no sense, unless one chooses to interpret it as an attempt to make Peiper look bad to modern readers.

Had the final draft been properly checked by suitably qualified editors, this part of it might have been changed. Having been on the receiving end of Westemeier's ire, I can only surmise that such editors would have been accused of being pro-Nazi revisionists in furious, abuse-laden missives from an author who, lest we forget, registered on Amazon.com as 'a reader' to post glowing reviews of his own book. This was the subject of a thread here on Feldgrau a while back: http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... westemeier. Some of you will recognise "HSSPF" as the pseudonym used by quite a wellknown author of serious reference works related to the Waffen-SS. Of course, Mr Westemeier lambasts such individuals as "SS groupies" in his emotional PMs to me. He appears to suggest that I am an "SS groupie" too, for daring to question his narrative.

I suppose I will be accused of employing "below the belt" tactics for bringing Mr Westemeier's rather amateur attempts at self-promotion up but the salient point for me is the intensity of the aggressive reaction to the points I raised in relation to his obvious attempt to misrepresent Peiper's attitude to his Nazi beliefs. In raising these points, I have hardly "cruxifed" Mr Westemeier's book. If he can defend his narrative on these points, then why not simply do so, instead of sending me unpleasant PMs and having his friends post the usual nonsensical insinuations of pro-Nazi sympathies on the part of anyone not toeing their line?

PK
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Post by krichter33 »

Which author?
Klaus Richter
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

That's not for me to say...

Sorry.

:D

PK
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Post by TimoWr »

Yes, let's bring in HSSPF again. On and on and on this goes and to what use. Now I have to point out your mistakes again and then I'll get new accusations of being narrow minded, political correct, etc., etc., etc. All a complete waste of time because most people here have made up their mind about these matters and will not change it.

BTW, by accident HSSPF signed one of his messages in this board as "Mark Yerger" so it isn't a mystery who Paddy is talking about.
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Post by krichter33 »

I'm tired, and confused...I think I'm going to go read a book about U boat commanders or something.... :?
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Post by Jan-Hendrik »

by accident HSSPF signed one of his messages in this board as "Mark Yerger"
Quite intersting info :shock:

:[]

Jan-Hendrik
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Post by Paddy Keating »

Having had yet another PM from Mr Westemeier, suggesting that I am having "fun", I'd like to assure anyone labouring under that impression that I have nothing personal against Jens Westemeier. I am merely posing a simple question. I would probably have more questions after going through the book. However, I do take issue with Westemeier's motives for rewriting his 1996 book. If he feels that he was duped by various witnesses and sources when he wrote the first book and that a revision is necessary, that is fine. But it is a bit risky to set out to write an historical narrative when one is fuelled by feelings of anger, betrayal and a desire for some sort of vengeance. There is bound to be the risk of a tendency to make the facts fit the narrative rather than the other way around...as we see in this question of Jochen Peiper's political beliefs and how Westemeier deals with them in his new book. I do not know if the manuscript was checked or even read by a qualified editor but in general, it is a good idea to have checks and balances in place to guard against just this sort of negative critique after a book has been published. Most publishers I know would have freaked out over some of Jens Westemeier's own statements about his motives for writing the book because Westemeier managed to undermine his own credibility without any help from anyone else. There again, it's a fine line between vanity publishing and commercial publishing.

That said, the book is clearly an indispensable addition to any military history library focusing on the Waffen-SS. Nothing can ever be described as "all bad", so to speak. I thought Westemeier's first book seemed OK. I ploughed through it in German, which I can read reasonably well, having been in a German school for two years as a child. If Westemeier thinks it was insufficiently critical of Jochen Peiper, he is entitled to his opinions and to write whatever he wants to write about the man. But he should not complain if people then question or criticise his work. He should calmly defend his work, instead of sending furious, defamatory missives to his critics. He is doubtless used to how things work on the AHF website, where anyone upsetting the Inner Circle-Jerk members is liable to be banned for rocking the boat but there is not the same degree of "protection" on offer to him here, nor on Feldpost.tv.

PK
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
by accident HSSPF signed one of his messages in this board as "Mark Yerger"
Quite intersting info :shock:

:[]

Jan-Hendrik
Also known as "Heinz Kling" at one time, I believe. All the more reason, IMHO, to extend an amnesty to banned members Pzmeyer2 and Ragin' Cajun, otherwise it all smacks a bit of double standards. After all, Mark Yerger, whose work I greatly admire, is a moderator here on Feldgrau. It is entirely understandable that an author would avail himself of a pseudonym from time to time. All writers do this. But let's face it, "Heinz Kling" was banned for taking on the small but vocal hardcore of self-appointed guardians of moral rectitude infesting Feldgrau. Most of these characters are more active over on the AHF website and I am sure many of us heartily wish they would stay there. Pzmeyer2 and Ragin' did no worse than "Heinz Kling", who nevertheless retained his IDs as moderator Mark C Yerger and "HSSPF" here. As a website administrator myself, I can tell you that there is just no way that the management could be unaware of this unless Mark Yerger is religiously logging on through proxy IPs every time he comes here! So, how about it, guys? How about reinstating Pzmeyer2 and Ragin' Cajun. A forum without dissent isn't a forum.

Pzmeyer2 is a serving US Army officer with a keen mind, as this rather incisive critique of Westemeier's book on our website shows: http://www.feldpost.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1077. Not everyone agrees with his take on things but is that any reason to ban someone from a public forum?

PK
Last edited by Paddy Keating on Thu May 31, 2007 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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