I have been reading an excellent book of the outstanding Russian philosopher Prof. I.A.Ilyin and found there an explanation of the behavior and attitude of some of my opponents (e.g. Sid, Matt, Kitsune, Gubirgsjaeger, Oberlieutenant etc.) as well as the roots of Nazi attitude to Russia, which caused many war crimes.
Prof. I.A. Ilyin : “Where we are Russian imigrants are located we should remember that other nations don’t know us, don’t understand us, don’t sympathetic to us. They scare of Russia and are glad to any weakening of Russia… Western Europe does not know us, first of all, because Russian language is alien to Europe. Secondly, because Russian Orthodox religion is alien to Europe. Europe was always under rule of Rome. Initially pagan Rome and later catholic. But Russia perceived Greek traditions not Rome ones. Rome never suited to our spirit and character. Its self-confident, over-powering and cruel will always pushed away Russian heart and honesty. Europe does not know us thirdly, because Slavic-Russian world, nature & human perception are alien to them. Western-Europeans are driven by will and pragmatism while Russians are driven mainly by heart and imagination and only secondary by will and mind. Therefore an average European is ashamed of sincerity, kindness or honesty as stupidity. But an average Russian on the contrary expects from other man first of all kindness, honesty and sincerity. An average European, brought up by Rome, detests at heart other nations (including European) and wishes to rule over them but inside his state demands formal freedom and formal democracy. An average Russian always enjoys natural freedom of his space, freedom of his way of life was wondering to other nations and in the friendly way got along with them. A Russian valued freedom of spirit more than a formal legal freedom. And if other nations didn’t disturb and bother a Russian, he would never hold a weapon and fight.
Out of all above, the big difference arose between Western and Eastern Russian culture. Our culture is unique because of our own different spirit. We have different cathedrals, different church service, different honesty, different courage, different way of family life, different literature, music, theatres, paintings etc. But our soul is open to Western culture. We know it, we see it, we study it, we learn it if it worth, we learn their languages and value their best paintings etc. Europeans understand and accept only those that similar to them distorting things on their manner. For them all Russians are worrisome, alien, strange and not attractive. Their dead heart is dead for us. They proudly look at us from above and consider our culture either insignificant or meaningless.
So, Western Europe does not know Russia but unknown is always scary. And Russia by its population, by its space and its natural resources are huge. Huge unknown is always considered as a danger, especially after events of 18th and 19th centuries when Russia demonstrated to Europe the valor of its solders and genius of its historian military leaders. Starting from the Peter the Great the Europe was worried and scared of Russia. Starting from Saltykov (Kunnersdforf), Suvorov and Aleksander the First the Europe was feared of Russia. “What if this hanging over from east power would move to west?” The World War I and the World War II strengthened this fear. The Communists world ambitions transformed it into on-going concern and alarm.
BUT a fear humiliates a human being that’s way they disguise fear by arrogance and hatred. Ignorance and incompetence impregnated and saturated by fear, arrogance and hatred are exaggerating, malicious and tell lies. The European majority and especially their democratic governments don’t know Russia and constantly are dreaming of its weakening.
More than 200 years Western Europe is scared of Russia and any Russian service and help to European matters (The Seven Years War, War with Napoleon, salvage of Prussia in 1805-1815, salvage of Austria in 1849, salvage of France in 1875, peacefulness of Aleksander III, the Haag Conferences, sacrificing fight with Germany in 1914-1917) was never appreciated and diminish European fear. Any nobility and unselfishness of Russian tsars never dispersed European malicious critics and mudslingers. And when Europe saw that Russia became a victim of Communist revolution they decided that it was triumph of European civilization, that a new “democracy” would break down and weaken Russia and they would be able not to fear Russia. They thought that Russian communism meant “progress” and “calming” for Europe. What blindness! What a delusion! One should find here the Europe attitude to Russia: “Russia is a mysterious, semi-barbaric emptiness, which has to be evangelized, transformed into Catholicism and civilized. If required, Russia has to be used for trade and our Western-European goals and games. But in any case, Russia has to be weakened. How? By involvement Russia at the disadvantageous moment into devastating wars. By not allowing Russia to get access to open seas. By breaking down Russia into small states, if possible. By reduction of its population (e.g. through support of communists with their terror, policy of Germany in 1917-1939). By cultivation the civil wars and revolutions. And then by knitting Western-European forms of republic, federalism and “democracy’. By on-going condemnation of Russia’s imaginary and false “imperialism”, its imaginary extreme reaction and conservatism, its imaginary lack of culture and its imaginary aggressiveness.
We have to understand all above, verify that and never forget that. Not for the reason that we have to respond to animosity and hostility by hatred. But in order to succumb to sentimental illusions, which are typical to Russians.” (Prof. I.A. Ilyin, Of the Future Russia, selected Essays, P.131-133.)
Best Regards from Russia,
German War crimes in Russia
Moderator: sniper1shot
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sid guttridge
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Hi Igor,
I don't know why you categorise me as one of your opponents. Sometimes I support your propositions (as in my last post on this thread) and sometimes I don't.
I would suggest that you should not put much reliance on I. A. Ilyin's wild generalisations. Beyond stating the obvious about "Fear of the Unknown" being historically a major contributory factor to foreign fears about Russia, much of what he writes about Europe and Russia (as if Russia is not part of Europe!) is charicature. (i.e. "...an average European is ashamed of sincerity, kindness or honesty as stupidity.") I would suggest that Ilyin's own "Fear of the Unknown" is stoking his fears of a "Europe" that he himself seems to know very little about.
I would go further. Ilyin is pushing the sort of mystic charicatures of national realities that one finds in Nazi writing of the 1930s. All Russia's problems are, according to him, somebody else's fault. He seems to lack the moral courage to address Russia's own internal failings.
Did you notice that there was not one single piece of proof, evidence or source offered from beginning to end of the piece you quoted? It is entirely words without substance.
Cheers,
Sid.
I don't know why you categorise me as one of your opponents. Sometimes I support your propositions (as in my last post on this thread) and sometimes I don't.
I would suggest that you should not put much reliance on I. A. Ilyin's wild generalisations. Beyond stating the obvious about "Fear of the Unknown" being historically a major contributory factor to foreign fears about Russia, much of what he writes about Europe and Russia (as if Russia is not part of Europe!) is charicature. (i.e. "...an average European is ashamed of sincerity, kindness or honesty as stupidity.") I would suggest that Ilyin's own "Fear of the Unknown" is stoking his fears of a "Europe" that he himself seems to know very little about.
I would go further. Ilyin is pushing the sort of mystic charicatures of national realities that one finds in Nazi writing of the 1930s. All Russia's problems are, according to him, somebody else's fault. He seems to lack the moral courage to address Russia's own internal failings.
Did you notice that there was not one single piece of proof, evidence or source offered from beginning to end of the piece you quoted? It is entirely words without substance.
Cheers,
Sid.
Sid,
On the contrary, the book of Prof. Ilyin is full of historian examples and is not "pushing the sort of mystic charicatures" but givest frank and honest answers to many questions. And when you Europeans hypocrticaly say "as if Russia is not part of Europe" I answer to you Not. Russia is not part of EU and you, Europeans do not want to see Russia in Europe and always apply the policy of the doubled standards. Europe even today is scared of Russia and doing its best to weaken Russia, not to allow Russia to become EU member, creating beurocratic and humiliating procedures for Russians to obtain EU visa, creating trade quotas for Russian companies to sell goods to EU, critisizing "human rights abuse" and aggressiveness of Russia in Chechnya etc.
Prof. Ilyin is not saying as you claimed that all Russia's problems were somebody else fault. In his book he analyses the roots of these problems, both internal and external, gives honest and professional assessment of the Soviet communism and answers why Russia collapsed in 1917 and why Russia was vulnerable to communists. He is addressing these issues and proposes new different models for Russia and gives direct answers how to overcome these problems and create a new Russia.
Best Regards from Russia,
On the contrary, the book of Prof. Ilyin is full of historian examples and is not "pushing the sort of mystic charicatures" but givest frank and honest answers to many questions. And when you Europeans hypocrticaly say "as if Russia is not part of Europe" I answer to you Not. Russia is not part of EU and you, Europeans do not want to see Russia in Europe and always apply the policy of the doubled standards. Europe even today is scared of Russia and doing its best to weaken Russia, not to allow Russia to become EU member, creating beurocratic and humiliating procedures for Russians to obtain EU visa, creating trade quotas for Russian companies to sell goods to EU, critisizing "human rights abuse" and aggressiveness of Russia in Chechnya etc.
Prof. Ilyin is not saying as you claimed that all Russia's problems were somebody else fault. In his book he analyses the roots of these problems, both internal and external, gives honest and professional assessment of the Soviet communism and answers why Russia collapsed in 1917 and why Russia was vulnerable to communists. He is addressing these issues and proposes new different models for Russia and gives direct answers how to overcome these problems and create a new Russia.
Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
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sid guttridge
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Hi Igorn,
I can only go by the excerpt of Ilyin's work that you posted here. I am delighted if the excerpt is not representative of the book as a whole and the rest of the book is better sourced and has a better understanding of "Europe".
As a matter of interst, what does Ilyin mean by "Europe"? In your last post you seem to equate it with the "EU".
I don't think anyone is much scared of Russia at the moment except as a source of potential instability. It's economy is valued at about the same as that of the Netherlands, so it is not currently a major economic threat and its armed forces are in an awful state. Russia hasn't seemed less threatening for decades and possibly centuiries.
As a matter of interest, when did Russia apply to join the EU? I have never heard of any such application.
And Russians have always had to have visas to visit the EU. There is no "new and humiliating bureaucratic procedure". EU pasport holders also need visas to get into the Russia.
I suspect that, provided Russia conforms to EU norms, it would be very welcome inside the EU. However, like Britain, I suspect that Russia will go through a post-imperial stage where it thinks it is too grand to join the EU, before finally doing so.
Cheers,
Sid.
I can only go by the excerpt of Ilyin's work that you posted here. I am delighted if the excerpt is not representative of the book as a whole and the rest of the book is better sourced and has a better understanding of "Europe".
As a matter of interst, what does Ilyin mean by "Europe"? In your last post you seem to equate it with the "EU".
I don't think anyone is much scared of Russia at the moment except as a source of potential instability. It's economy is valued at about the same as that of the Netherlands, so it is not currently a major economic threat and its armed forces are in an awful state. Russia hasn't seemed less threatening for decades and possibly centuiries.
As a matter of interest, when did Russia apply to join the EU? I have never heard of any such application.
And Russians have always had to have visas to visit the EU. There is no "new and humiliating bureaucratic procedure". EU pasport holders also need visas to get into the Russia.
I suspect that, provided Russia conforms to EU norms, it would be very welcome inside the EU. However, like Britain, I suspect that Russia will go through a post-imperial stage where it thinks it is too grand to join the EU, before finally doing so.
Cheers,
Sid.
So the reason I and all others at this forum disagree with you is because of fear? You just created a whole new step on the stupidityladder, which indeed is quite a feat, looking at some of your earlier post.
But I guess it is in line with all your earlier posts where you call myself and all others who doesn't agree with your agenda "nazis or nazisupporters". And now you have found another book that supports your idiotic claims. Amazing, I'm losfer words.
Matt
But I guess it is in line with all your earlier posts where you call myself and all others who doesn't agree with your agenda "nazis or nazisupporters". And now you have found another book that supports your idiotic claims. Amazing, I'm losfer words.
Matt
Igorn, about your philosopher; I think it is another one of those authors, who want to prove that their nation is superior than any other.
You mention Peter the Great, well I hope you know, that he had most of his researchers and other advisors and architects were from the Western Europe where he got the idea of a Russian rebirth.
The Greek culture rose from the Roman influence, which the Bysantines spread to Russian soil, so you can't really say you are not connected to Europe. Even your religion rose from Rome in the begginig until the 11th century.
About the Russian nature; you maybe say you are kind people, well you are the same kind of twisted people as any nation in Europe is.
European history is connected in a long evolution of culture, politics, religion...and the russians are no different.
best,
Nibelung
You mention Peter the Great, well I hope you know, that he had most of his researchers and other advisors and architects were from the Western Europe where he got the idea of a Russian rebirth.
The Greek culture rose from the Roman influence, which the Bysantines spread to Russian soil, so you can't really say you are not connected to Europe. Even your religion rose from Rome in the begginig until the 11th century.
About the Russian nature; you maybe say you are kind people, well you are the same kind of twisted people as any nation in Europe is.
European history is connected in a long evolution of culture, politics, religion...and the russians are no different.
best,
Nibelung
There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people. - Heinz Guderian
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --
Igorn
You and your philosopher are missing one very modern reason for fear of Russia: communism. Many of us grew up with the iron curtain blocking out any view of Russia and we practiced ducking her missiles and bombs in our schools.
We knew about the camps (gulags) and all of us seemed to know somebody who'd been in East germany, Poland or some part of occupied Europe and they all had their horror stories. Russia seemed to us to be a dark place full of secret police where nothing worked right and everyone lived in fear of informers.
Most of us were no where nearly sophisticated enough for all that stuff your professor mentioned in his piece (even though I agree with parts of it) The key to fear of Russia was the cold war. And for me it was exemplified by a horrifying newspaper headline I remember from somewhere around the late fifties, early sixties: USSR explodes 100 Megaton Bomb over the Arctic. Yep, that scared me.
And for folks with short memories - that is just about where the fabled hole in the ozone can be found.
Delivering newspapers made me a well informed but somewhat nervous kid.
cheers
Reb
You and your philosopher are missing one very modern reason for fear of Russia: communism. Many of us grew up with the iron curtain blocking out any view of Russia and we practiced ducking her missiles and bombs in our schools.
We knew about the camps (gulags) and all of us seemed to know somebody who'd been in East germany, Poland or some part of occupied Europe and they all had their horror stories. Russia seemed to us to be a dark place full of secret police where nothing worked right and everyone lived in fear of informers.
Most of us were no where nearly sophisticated enough for all that stuff your professor mentioned in his piece (even though I agree with parts of it) The key to fear of Russia was the cold war. And for me it was exemplified by a horrifying newspaper headline I remember from somewhere around the late fifties, early sixties: USSR explodes 100 Megaton Bomb over the Arctic. Yep, that scared me.
And for folks with short memories - that is just about where the fabled hole in the ozone can be found.
Delivering newspapers made me a well informed but somewhat nervous kid.
cheers
Reb
Trust me guys - 100 megaton - over the arctic. Had everyone in an uproar. It was Ivan's way of saying "I'm nuclear and I'm serious"
It's also why I don't trust environmentalist extemists - blathering about deoderant causes a hole in the ozone. Those of us old enough to remember have no trouble figuring out why there is a hole in the ozone. We're just glad that's all the damage we sustained.
Note that bomb was about 500 times or more the size of the Hiroshima bomb. We had folks finding strontium 90 in the milk for ten years after.
cheers
Reb
It's also why I don't trust environmentalist extemists - blathering about deoderant causes a hole in the ozone. Those of us old enough to remember have no trouble figuring out why there is a hole in the ozone. We're just glad that's all the damage we sustained.
Note that bomb was about 500 times or more the size of the Hiroshima bomb. We had folks finding strontium 90 in the milk for ten years after.
cheers
Reb
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Dackel Staffel
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Hi,
So, everybody was able to drink milk even in the dark and one didn't need to boil the milk because it was already hot.
It was the 30th october 1961 : 58 megatons.
It was not only a test but also a military demonstration of Khrushchev against Kennedy. Remember, 1961 was the year of the Berlin crisis.
So long.
So, everybody was able to drink milk even in the dark and one didn't need to boil the milk because it was already hot.
It was the 30th october 1961 : 58 megatons.
It was not only a test but also a military demonstration of Khrushchev against Kennedy. Remember, 1961 was the year of the Berlin crisis.
So long.
All we need it's a Dackel in each pocket
Niebelung,Nibelung wrote:Igorn, about your philosopher; I think it is another one of those authors, who want to prove that their nation is superior than any other.
You mention Peter the Great, well I hope you know, that he had most of his researchers and other advisors and architects were from the Western Europe where he got the idea of a Russian rebirth.
The Greek culture rose from the Roman influence, which the Bysantines spread to Russian soil, so you can't really say you are not connected to Europe. Even your religion rose from Rome in the begginig until the 11th century.
About the Russian nature; you maybe say you are kind people, well you are the same kind of twisted people as any nation in Europe is.
European history is connected in a long evolution of culture, politics, religion...and the russians are no different.
best,
Nibelung
Did you complete a secondary school ? I was really amazed by your knowledge of Russian history. Have you ever read a single serious book in your life about history of Russia like works of Berdyaev, Soloviev, Karamzin, Dostoevsky, Klyuchevsky? When I said that Russia was not a Europe I meant that Russia had its unique place bridging Europe and Asia and that was reflected in its culture, literature, religion etc. Do you know the fundamental difference between Rome Catholic Church and Russian Greek Orthdox church? Have you read any serious literature in this regard? Are aware of the philosophical dilemma in Russian history whether Russia should take European or Asian way (so called East vs. West) and representatives of both directions like philosofers and thinkers Chaadaev, Danilevsky etc?
Your statements about Russian history are not different to your statements about different aspects of the World War II and show your incompetence and shallow knowledge of the subject.
Best Regards from Russia,
Igor