wittman just happened to be the only bllody german to hold up the entire armoured div in france, he was only the best tank commander in ww2, he also had the most kill's in a tank out of any other tank crew's.
i would have to say yes, he would be my hero, he was the smartest tank commander in ww2, he would actually check out the type of terrain before he went into battle,
his a couple of link's,
http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/ ... ttman.html
http://pedg.org/panzer/public/website/gen3.htm
http://www.strategos.demon.co.uk/D-Day/Wittmann.htm
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encycl ... ttmann.htm
so once you have read some info tell me weather he was a hero or not.
_____________________________________________________________
he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword
most feared tank of ww2
Moderator: sniper1shot
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Christoph Awender
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Hellovon_noobie wrote:wittman just happened to be the only bllody german to hold up the entire armoured div in france, he was only the best tank commander in ww2, he also had the most kill's in a tank out of any other tank crew's.
i would have to say yes, he would be my hero, he was the smartest tank commander in ww2, he would actually check out the type of terrain before he went into battle,
his a couple of link's,
http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/ ... ttman.html
http://pedg.org/panzer/public/website/gen3.htm
http://www.strategos.demon.co.uk/D-Day/Wittmann.htm
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encycl ... ttmann.htm
so once you have read some info tell me weather he was a hero or not.
_____________________________________________________________
he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword
Before you make yourself even more ridiculous with an oppinion about a man you don´t even know personnaly you should get some accurate information about thim (e.g. most kills etc...) from serious sources. And then come back and try to teach other people.
\Christoph
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Jan-Hendrik
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Or take a look at this :
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=1454
and get healed from propaganda
Jan-Hendrik
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=1454
and get healed from propaganda
Jan-Hendrik
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von_noobie
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Nooby
I think the point is that Wittman was certainly a great fighting man but he was one of many, and there were others who perhaps did more but were not the darlings of the Nazi propanda machine.
This is a very broad topic and you are just scratching the surface of that topic. Many of the folks here at a Feldgrau are researchers and have been for years - thats why its often best to remember that the Lord gave us but one mouth and TWO ears.
Its always safe to assume that the other fellow knows what he is talking about.
Consider - it is indeed interesting to read about Wittman because it gives us at least some insight into the life of a panzer officer. But scratch a little deeper and do some research and one finds there are many panzer officers just as interesting - hence the lack of hero worship you have encountered.
And warriors learn pretty quick that the most important side of heroism is survival - i.e. luck. Many good ones died lonely deaths far from the cameras.
cheers
Reb
I think the point is that Wittman was certainly a great fighting man but he was one of many, and there were others who perhaps did more but were not the darlings of the Nazi propanda machine.
This is a very broad topic and you are just scratching the surface of that topic. Many of the folks here at a Feldgrau are researchers and have been for years - thats why its often best to remember that the Lord gave us but one mouth and TWO ears.
Its always safe to assume that the other fellow knows what he is talking about.
Consider - it is indeed interesting to read about Wittman because it gives us at least some insight into the life of a panzer officer. But scratch a little deeper and do some research and one finds there are many panzer officers just as interesting - hence the lack of hero worship you have encountered.
And warriors learn pretty quick that the most important side of heroism is survival - i.e. luck. Many good ones died lonely deaths far from the cameras.
cheers
Reb
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Epaminondas
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Carius, Bix (spelling ?) and some guy with a name starting with a K (My english spelling is aweful... my German spelling when I'm away from my books is worse 
)
all killed more tanks then Wittman.
they just weren't SS, or in the of Bix, not even an officer.
---
As far as impressive tank commanders, Dr. Bake I have always considered particularly impressive.
)all killed more tanks then Wittman.
they just weren't SS, or in the of Bix, not even an officer.
---
As far as impressive tank commanders, Dr. Bake I have always considered particularly impressive.
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Ron Klages
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Another Hero
von_noobie,
I realize you are a young man searching for knowledge on World War II and I recommend that you ask your questions and react in a kind manner to other members on the forum. As has been pointed out, many of these people are very knowledable in matters regarding World War II and from these individuals one can increase one's knowledge.
I have been a World War II researcher for over thirty years and I am still learning daily from other people on the internet. So respect these people--they are friend not adversaries.
Also, I have learned, as you should, that in the study of history one should always keep an open mind. What is written is not always absolute. By being open one can verify fact, add additional facts and best of all gain more knowledge from the efforts of others.
Michael Wittmann was an effective fighter but there were many many others that contributed greatly to their countries achievements. Others had more victories, others had less, some survived, others did not. As a study of history you want to discover all of their stories for this is what is great about them.
In that vein, I have added a narrative about a comrade of Wittmann's and his exploits on one day of fighting in the East with his Tiger and crew. These are the stories you should be seeking, not the greatest tank, the greatest commander, etc. etc. What you seek, I believe, is the entire collage of the history of the greatest conflict in all of history.
HERE IS A SHORT STORY OF FRANZ STAUDEGGER'S EXPLOITS.
Unterscharführer Franz Staudegger was in the same unit as Michael Wittmann on the eastern front in July 1943 during operations in the Kursk area in Operation Zitadelle. Wittmann was in the III. platoon while Staudegger was I the II. platoon of the 13th company of the 1st SS Panzer Regiment. Staudegger was unable to take part in the attack of the 13th Company on July 8 because his Tiger I was suffering a mechanical breakdown and he was forced to remain behind in TETEREVINO. Later that morning he was informed that a group of 50 to 60 Soviet T-34s were approaching from the northeast,
At this time his Tiger I had been repaired and he informed a fellow comrade that he was not going to join the rest of the company but instead he would go hunting for the 50 to 60 Soviet T-34s instead. He immediately set out in the direction of the reported Soviet tanks with the following crew:
Sturmmann Herbert Stellmacher as driver
Panzerschütze Gerhard Waltersdorf as radio operator
Panzerschütze Heinz Buchner as gunner
Panzerschütze Walter Henke as loader
On the way he was informed by a grenadier that five Soviet T-34s had already broken through into the German positions. Shortly thereafter he observed German infantry destroy two of the T-34s. He then positioned his Tiger and they destroyed the remaining 3 Soviet T-34s in short order. Suddenly two more T-34s appeared on a railway embankment and Staudegger and crew quickly destroyed them. He then took the Tiger I through the German positions and headed into no-mans land, completely on his own, with no infantry support or other armored vehicles in support. His Tiger was alone against the advancing Soviet T-34s.
Soon he came upon 5 more T-34s emerging from a wood beyond the railway embankment. The Tiger immediately engaged the T-34s with many rounds being fired by both sides. All 5 T-34s were taken out by his Tiger.. Then more T-34s came from the wood to take up the fight with Staudegger and his Tiger. He yell the following instructions over and over, AI--FIRE—HIT. Shell after shell was loaded by Henke and Stellmacher kept the Tiger skillfully changing positions in front of the massed Soviet T-34s and this made it extremely difficult for the Soviets gunners to zero in on the Tiger. This battle was to last for two hours and when the smoke cleared they had destroyed nine more T-34s—17 in total at this point. His Tiger had taken many hits but none were able to inflict much damage. The remaining T-34s withdrew into the woods realizing they had been blocked from any further advance.
Staudegger and crew had been very successful to this point but they were still not through. Instead of returning to his lines he moved the Tiger forward to track down the retreating T-34s. His Tiger rolled forward slowly with all eyes observing the terrain making sure there were no Soviet traps being there. Soon he came upon the regrouping Soviet formation in a gully where they were reorganizing. He immediately moved forward rapidly and his 88 took out 5 more T-34s . He now was out of armor piercing rounds and he was forced to switch to high-explosive rounds. With these he observed 4 more T-34s being hit but they were apparently not destroyed.
Now the Soviets were completely dismayed and the remaining T-34s fled in panic from this seemingly invincible Tiger tank. Art this point Staudegger backed away from the retreating Soviets. He was out of ammunition and his engine was operating less than efficiently so it was time to return to his own lines. When he returned to the German lines the infantrymen were waving enthusiastically and thanking them for forcing the Soviet armor to retreat.
The next day a patrol was dispatched and they confirmed the destruction of 22 T-34s by Staudegger and his crew and the commanding officer submitted the 20 year old Franz Staudegger for the award of the Ritterkreutz which he was awarded on two days later on July 10, 1943. He was the first member of the Tiger Company to receive this award.
Best regards,
Ron Klages
I realize you are a young man searching for knowledge on World War II and I recommend that you ask your questions and react in a kind manner to other members on the forum. As has been pointed out, many of these people are very knowledable in matters regarding World War II and from these individuals one can increase one's knowledge.
I have been a World War II researcher for over thirty years and I am still learning daily from other people on the internet. So respect these people--they are friend not adversaries.
Also, I have learned, as you should, that in the study of history one should always keep an open mind. What is written is not always absolute. By being open one can verify fact, add additional facts and best of all gain more knowledge from the efforts of others.
Michael Wittmann was an effective fighter but there were many many others that contributed greatly to their countries achievements. Others had more victories, others had less, some survived, others did not. As a study of history you want to discover all of their stories for this is what is great about them.
In that vein, I have added a narrative about a comrade of Wittmann's and his exploits on one day of fighting in the East with his Tiger and crew. These are the stories you should be seeking, not the greatest tank, the greatest commander, etc. etc. What you seek, I believe, is the entire collage of the history of the greatest conflict in all of history.
HERE IS A SHORT STORY OF FRANZ STAUDEGGER'S EXPLOITS.
Unterscharführer Franz Staudegger was in the same unit as Michael Wittmann on the eastern front in July 1943 during operations in the Kursk area in Operation Zitadelle. Wittmann was in the III. platoon while Staudegger was I the II. platoon of the 13th company of the 1st SS Panzer Regiment. Staudegger was unable to take part in the attack of the 13th Company on July 8 because his Tiger I was suffering a mechanical breakdown and he was forced to remain behind in TETEREVINO. Later that morning he was informed that a group of 50 to 60 Soviet T-34s were approaching from the northeast,
At this time his Tiger I had been repaired and he informed a fellow comrade that he was not going to join the rest of the company but instead he would go hunting for the 50 to 60 Soviet T-34s instead. He immediately set out in the direction of the reported Soviet tanks with the following crew:
Sturmmann Herbert Stellmacher as driver
Panzerschütze Gerhard Waltersdorf as radio operator
Panzerschütze Heinz Buchner as gunner
Panzerschütze Walter Henke as loader
On the way he was informed by a grenadier that five Soviet T-34s had already broken through into the German positions. Shortly thereafter he observed German infantry destroy two of the T-34s. He then positioned his Tiger and they destroyed the remaining 3 Soviet T-34s in short order. Suddenly two more T-34s appeared on a railway embankment and Staudegger and crew quickly destroyed them. He then took the Tiger I through the German positions and headed into no-mans land, completely on his own, with no infantry support or other armored vehicles in support. His Tiger was alone against the advancing Soviet T-34s.
Soon he came upon 5 more T-34s emerging from a wood beyond the railway embankment. The Tiger immediately engaged the T-34s with many rounds being fired by both sides. All 5 T-34s were taken out by his Tiger.. Then more T-34s came from the wood to take up the fight with Staudegger and his Tiger. He yell the following instructions over and over, AI--FIRE—HIT. Shell after shell was loaded by Henke and Stellmacher kept the Tiger skillfully changing positions in front of the massed Soviet T-34s and this made it extremely difficult for the Soviets gunners to zero in on the Tiger. This battle was to last for two hours and when the smoke cleared they had destroyed nine more T-34s—17 in total at this point. His Tiger had taken many hits but none were able to inflict much damage. The remaining T-34s withdrew into the woods realizing they had been blocked from any further advance.
Staudegger and crew had been very successful to this point but they were still not through. Instead of returning to his lines he moved the Tiger forward to track down the retreating T-34s. His Tiger rolled forward slowly with all eyes observing the terrain making sure there were no Soviet traps being there. Soon he came upon the regrouping Soviet formation in a gully where they were reorganizing. He immediately moved forward rapidly and his 88 took out 5 more T-34s . He now was out of armor piercing rounds and he was forced to switch to high-explosive rounds. With these he observed 4 more T-34s being hit but they were apparently not destroyed.
Now the Soviets were completely dismayed and the remaining T-34s fled in panic from this seemingly invincible Tiger tank. Art this point Staudegger backed away from the retreating Soviets. He was out of ammunition and his engine was operating less than efficiently so it was time to return to his own lines. When he returned to the German lines the infantrymen were waving enthusiastically and thanking them for forcing the Soviet armor to retreat.
The next day a patrol was dispatched and they confirmed the destruction of 22 T-34s by Staudegger and his crew and the commanding officer submitted the 20 year old Franz Staudegger for the award of the Ritterkreutz which he was awarded on two days later on July 10, 1943. He was the first member of the Tiger Company to receive this award.
Best regards,
Ron Klages
Ron Klages
Lynnwood, Washington USA
Lynnwood, Washington USA
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von_noobie
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Ron Klages
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Agte's Book
Hello Corderex,
Staudegger's tale comes from Patrick Agte's book Michael Wittmann and the Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte.
Hey it is past my bed time here so have an excellent week.
All the best,
Ron Klages
Staudegger's tale comes from Patrick Agte's book Michael Wittmann and the Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte.
Hey it is past my bed time here so have an excellent week.
All the best,
Ron Klages
Ron Klages
Lynnwood, Washington USA
Lynnwood, Washington USA
That is what the problems were originally attributed to, but postwar R&D showed that it was actually the design of the sabot that was causing the problem rather than poor manufacturing.Reb wrote:Rich
Actually I read somewhere that there were some manufacturing problems with some of the 17 pdr ammo in Normandy. Could be wrong.
cheers
Reb
Uh, exactly...I think that's what I said, there were no actual manufacturing problems with the 17-pdr sabot - other than the design.nigelfe wrote:I've already listed the only references in reliable RA sources that I can find to 17-pr ammo problems (none found). If it happened then it was probably very localised, either geographically or a particular batch, and the two could amount to the same thing.
Correct, but I was referring to hi-velocity tank cannon.Muzzle blast per se wouldn't affect observation of the shot tracer by the No 1 who was responsbile for controlling fire and could be positioned several/many yards to a flank (at least with towed guns).
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von_noobie
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