Hi Maxis,
There are clearly grey areas.
The question arises as to who decided that some Polish-speakers were Germans and others not, and how the various "Polish-speaking Germans" were recruited into the Selbschutz/Ordnungspolizei?
Without such details it is not possible to establish the degree of "Polishness" of these men, either in their own minds or in their ethnicity. (i.e. Were they conscripted ethnic Poles or Germanic volunteers, etc.?)
Do your sources give such information?
Cheers,
Sid.
Selbstschutz in Poland
Moderator: George Lepre
Hi Sid and all.
Ethnical composition in Selbstschutz/Sonderdienst is a problem not easy to solve. But we have some data on which to speculate.
On my opinion we have to subdivided this topic in two:
1) Selbstschutz in Poland areas annexed by Reich (Wartheland, Danzig-Weichsel, Schlesien)
2) Selbstschutz/Sonderdienst in Generalgouvernement (plus Lemberg district fm June 1941)
About 1)
Beginning fm 1938 SD began to infiltrate agents in Poland to organize german volksdeutsche as a fifth column in case of war. On September 1939 all of this happened, particularly around Poznan and Konitz areas. On Justiz and Verbrechen Web page there’s a list of crimes committed by Selbstschutz between september/november 1939: crimes committed against Polish and Jews.
Obviously, perpetrators were all german-volksdeutsche speaking german, organized in self-defence groups formed on volunteer base; conscription (obviously) was not applied, as member were fm all age groups (18-55 y.o. at least). Practically they were villagers organized and they were all disbanded when those areas were annexed to Reich and security tasks assigned to Ordnungspolizei. As my infos, till the end of war remained a single one formation derived fm selbstschutz: in Lodz, but called Hilfspolizei under Orpo.
About 2)
In GG situation was a bit different. Selbstschutz existed (any info welcomed!!) on limited base in Warsaw and Radom areas and never played an important role.
When Generalgouvernement was organized and Frank appointed, germans in this area (looks to my post about volksdeutsche in Poland) – more than 320.000 - were looked as a source of manpower, for security roles and tasks. In the meantime (8 november 1939 ), Selbstschutz had been formally disbanded and Frank was obliged to form a totally new structure: fm January 1940 Sonderdienst was organized but on volunteer base; two bataillons were formed, then four. I’m not 100% sure but, with Stab-Bataillon in each district capital-town (Warschau, Radom, Lublin and Krakau) sub-units were located in various district villages and small towns under jurisdiction on majors (Stadt and Kreishauptmanner). On october 1942 direct control was assigned to BdO/KdO: obviously, command language was german and services was volunteer till 1943 when became mandatory fm 18/40. Neverthless, in this case, I’m not sure about “pureness” of german blood in Sonderdienst: surely half-germans speaking german were accepted, and poles and half-poles declaring themselves germans, also (on this topic –self declarations- looks to Martin Dean, “Collaboration in Holocaust”). All of this for many and many reasons (opportunism, job and pay, hate agains jews, etc).
On 1943 seven bataillon existed, some of them in eastern Poland border areas, used to fight communist and jews-partisans. A bataillon, probably, was assigned to guard Trawnik.
In Lemberg annexed area (becomed fifth GG district) we have to identify another one situation: as german volksgruppe was resettled to Lodz in 1940 and only a few germans remained living in the area, Sonderdienst was formed with mixed volunteers: polish with little german blood (probably speaking polish only) and some ukrainians; this occourred, for example in Kolomnjia: here Sonderdienst, under SD control, was used to destroy local Ghetto and to kill jews (Looks to Nizkor Web page and Raul Hilberg book, for more details).
Consequently a very composite situation, without any “certain certainty” and prejudiced “truth”.
Best
Max
Ethnical composition in Selbstschutz/Sonderdienst is a problem not easy to solve. But we have some data on which to speculate.
On my opinion we have to subdivided this topic in two:
1) Selbstschutz in Poland areas annexed by Reich (Wartheland, Danzig-Weichsel, Schlesien)
2) Selbstschutz/Sonderdienst in Generalgouvernement (plus Lemberg district fm June 1941)
About 1)
Beginning fm 1938 SD began to infiltrate agents in Poland to organize german volksdeutsche as a fifth column in case of war. On September 1939 all of this happened, particularly around Poznan and Konitz areas. On Justiz and Verbrechen Web page there’s a list of crimes committed by Selbstschutz between september/november 1939: crimes committed against Polish and Jews.
Obviously, perpetrators were all german-volksdeutsche speaking german, organized in self-defence groups formed on volunteer base; conscription (obviously) was not applied, as member were fm all age groups (18-55 y.o. at least). Practically they were villagers organized and they were all disbanded when those areas were annexed to Reich and security tasks assigned to Ordnungspolizei. As my infos, till the end of war remained a single one formation derived fm selbstschutz: in Lodz, but called Hilfspolizei under Orpo.
About 2)
In GG situation was a bit different. Selbstschutz existed (any info welcomed!!) on limited base in Warsaw and Radom areas and never played an important role.
When Generalgouvernement was organized and Frank appointed, germans in this area (looks to my post about volksdeutsche in Poland) – more than 320.000 - were looked as a source of manpower, for security roles and tasks. In the meantime (8 november 1939 ), Selbstschutz had been formally disbanded and Frank was obliged to form a totally new structure: fm January 1940 Sonderdienst was organized but on volunteer base; two bataillons were formed, then four. I’m not 100% sure but, with Stab-Bataillon in each district capital-town (Warschau, Radom, Lublin and Krakau) sub-units were located in various district villages and small towns under jurisdiction on majors (Stadt and Kreishauptmanner). On october 1942 direct control was assigned to BdO/KdO: obviously, command language was german and services was volunteer till 1943 when became mandatory fm 18/40. Neverthless, in this case, I’m not sure about “pureness” of german blood in Sonderdienst: surely half-germans speaking german were accepted, and poles and half-poles declaring themselves germans, also (on this topic –self declarations- looks to Martin Dean, “Collaboration in Holocaust”). All of this for many and many reasons (opportunism, job and pay, hate agains jews, etc).
On 1943 seven bataillon existed, some of them in eastern Poland border areas, used to fight communist and jews-partisans. A bataillon, probably, was assigned to guard Trawnik.
In Lemberg annexed area (becomed fifth GG district) we have to identify another one situation: as german volksgruppe was resettled to Lodz in 1940 and only a few germans remained living in the area, Sonderdienst was formed with mixed volunteers: polish with little german blood (probably speaking polish only) and some ukrainians; this occourred, for example in Kolomnjia: here Sonderdienst, under SD control, was used to destroy local Ghetto and to kill jews (Looks to Nizkor Web page and Raul Hilberg book, for more details).
Consequently a very composite situation, without any “certain certainty” and prejudiced “truth”.
Best
Max
Decima!
About who and how decided on germanicity of someone we have to remember the existance of an overpowered Reich organization: the Volksdeutsche-Mittelstelle or VOMI, directly put under Himmler’s controll (obviously!).sid guttridge wrote:
The question arises as to who decided that some Polish-speakers were Germans and others not, and how the various "Polish-speaking Germans" were recruited into the Selbschutz/Ordnungspolizei?
Within VOMI existed some sub-structures, institutions and organizations, charged to define, propagate, stimulate the Volkstum into Volksdeutsche: this work was simply called Volkstumarbeit and was strictly connected with 1) ideological Hitler’s theories about Lebensraum and 2) with power struggle within Reich itself, as volksdeutche were seen as a source of power and manpower, particularly by SS.
For example VOMI controlled the Bund Deutscher Osten, a center of irredentist propaganda, the Deutsche-Akademie, the Deutsche-Ausland-Institut, charged to study and define ethnical carachters in and outside Reich etc.
With these tools in their hands operated the so-called VOMI-Kommandos, directly on spot, charging to register list of names, organizing evaquations, furnishing support to Volksdeutsche. All of this during war.
Before war, Reich gouvernement, instead takes agreement with Italy and Soviet Uniton, to simply transfer – voluntarly – germans fm Tyrol, Baltic, Vholynia, East Poland, Bucovina, Bessarabia.....
All of this to say that volksdeutsche phenomenon was not casual but put under well-defined rules directly fm Berlin’s “think-tanks” (and maybe for this that – for us- seems so hard to undersand!).
Best
Max
Decima!
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
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Hi Maxis,
A couple of points.
If there were 320,000 Germans in the General Gouvernment, then the raising of seven battalions of Selbschutz (about 3,500 men?) should have been relatively easy without having to recruit people of doubtful ethnicity.
However, according to the information I have, the population of the General Government before the addition of Galicia was 12.1 million, of whom only 80,000 were German. The addition of Galicia brought in another 6 million, of whom only a tiny fraction were German. During the war 100,000 Reichsdeutsch setters were reprtedly brought in giving a total of Germans in the General Gouvernment in January 1944 of about 180,000.
I haven't got the source with me. However, it was from a series of German books published in the mid 1950s about the evacuation and expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe during and after the war. The statistics were drawn from the archives of the wartime German resettlement organisation.
If you remind me next week, when I am back at home, I will give you more details of the source for you to follow up.
Cheers,
Sid.
A couple of points.
If there were 320,000 Germans in the General Gouvernment, then the raising of seven battalions of Selbschutz (about 3,500 men?) should have been relatively easy without having to recruit people of doubtful ethnicity.
However, according to the information I have, the population of the General Government before the addition of Galicia was 12.1 million, of whom only 80,000 were German. The addition of Galicia brought in another 6 million, of whom only a tiny fraction were German. During the war 100,000 Reichsdeutsch setters were reprtedly brought in giving a total of Germans in the General Gouvernment in January 1944 of about 180,000.
I haven't got the source with me. However, it was from a series of German books published in the mid 1950s about the evacuation and expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe during and after the war. The statistics were drawn from the archives of the wartime German resettlement organisation.
If you remind me next week, when I am back at home, I will give you more details of the source for you to follow up.
Cheers,
Sid.
Hi Sid
Neverthless, Sonderdienst could have been the most obvious “solution” to accomplish military duty for Volksdeutsche. I have a couple of books (but data remained unverified!!) rumoring about 16 NSKK companies formed into GG (2.000/2500 men??) and 19 SA (??) Wehrbereitschaften (2.000??), plus unspecified nr. in Forstschutzkommandos also.
Besided we have to consider that a good amount of males was “untouchable” for “economic” reasons (jobs, farms etc: for example in South Tyrol 40.000 fm 50.000 SOD were dismissed for this, between 5.000/6000 considered as Reserve II –for Landwacht part-time-duty only and the remaining assigned to Brixen and Schlanders Regiments)
I repeat these data remained highly unverified, but worthly of a more-deeply analysis.
Anyway do you have any info about the following book?
Der 'Volksdeutsche Selbstschutz' in Polen 1939/40
von Christian Jansen, Arno Weckbecker
Best
Max
Effectively yr. objection is valid: 3.500 on 320.000 represent a little more than 1%: a rather trifling amount, (2% cosidering male population only...)sid guttridge wrote: If there were 320,000 Germans in the General Gouvernment, then the raising of seven battalions of Selbschutz (about 3,500 men?) should have been relatively easy without having to recruit people of doubtful ethnicity.
Neverthless, Sonderdienst could have been the most obvious “solution” to accomplish military duty for Volksdeutsche. I have a couple of books (but data remained unverified!!) rumoring about 16 NSKK companies formed into GG (2.000/2500 men??) and 19 SA (??) Wehrbereitschaften (2.000??), plus unspecified nr. in Forstschutzkommandos also.
Besided we have to consider that a good amount of males was “untouchable” for “economic” reasons (jobs, farms etc: for example in South Tyrol 40.000 fm 50.000 SOD were dismissed for this, between 5.000/6000 considered as Reserve II –for Landwacht part-time-duty only and the remaining assigned to Brixen and Schlanders Regiments)
I repeat these data remained highly unverified, but worthly of a more-deeply analysis.
Anyway do you have any info about the following book?
Der 'Volksdeutsche Selbstschutz' in Polen 1939/40
von Christian Jansen, Arno Weckbecker
Thks, I'll do it.sid guttridge wrote: If you remind me next week, when I am back at home, I will give you more details of the source for you to follow up.
Best
Max
Decima!
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Helmut Von Moltke