Final defence of Berlin

[Helmut Von Moltke]

ah, Richard Landwehr describes the battle of Berlin in his article "The European volunteer movement" An incident which particularaly is moving is when the Danish SS comander Per Sorensen,who had fought with his men for 4 years non stop, is killed, his funeral is most touching. When his body is lowered in the burying ground, 2 Danish SS officers struggle to contain their emotions, and a German SS Nordland guy says somethin like "May you at last find peace in out bleeding city!" And with all the roaring of Russian artillery fire, the strains of "Ich Hatt einen kmaeraden" are played. It truly represents the dying of the crusade against Bolshevism. (take note though, this post is not meant to be political.)

just my 2 cents.....

helmut

[sid guttridge]

Hi HvM,

This was the way millions of men were buried. It has no particular resonance for the W-SS or any "Crusades against Communism".

Cutting through all the emotive smokescreen, looked at coldly, this was the burial of a traitor by fellow traitors.

Cheers,

Sid.

[M.H.]

Traitors?
If someone believes in a cause (whatever that is and whatever we think about it) and gives the ultimate highest he has to give, his life, that one isn't a traitor in my book.

Maybe we should define the concept "Traitor"?

[Helmut Von Moltke]

they weren't officialy traitors (Frikorps Danmark) because the Danish government allowed them to serve, but conveniently forgot it after the war. such oppotunitists, them

[Laurent Daniel]

they weren't officialy traitors (Frikorps Danmark) because the Danish government allowed them to serve, but conveniently forgot it after the war. such oppotunitists, them

Hi, Helmut,
The sentence of Chancellor Conrad Adenauer is quoted out of the context, sorry. He said that to explain why the former Waffen SS, except the ones condemned for war crimes, were receiving in the post-war RFA the same social benefits than the other veterans, that's all.

However, I have to slightly disagree with Sid Guttridge. the non-German Waffen SS fought only on the Eastern Front. For a Dane, a Norvegian, a Belgian, a French, etc... to be a traitor, he would had to fight against his own fellow citizen on his own soil.

We had some people that can be considered as traitors in France, such as the Bezen Perrot, the Franc Garde of the Milice and the ones who joined the French Gestapo services. Their targets were French Resistance fighters. They were considered as traitors after the war and many of them had to pay a heavy price for their acts.

Not the same with the French Waffen SS and LVF. They went to the Eastern Front to fight against the Soviets. After the war, many of them "slipped across" legal troubles, some were arrested, judged and condemned to jail sentences (The Bad Reichenhall executions is an other story, nothing to see).

Most of the ones who were condemned were released quite fast, i.e. as soon as the cold war started. One exemple:
Hauptsturmführer Henri Joseph Fenet, (1919 - 2002) Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes: 29 Apr. 1945 as SS-Hauptsturmführer, Kommandeur of SS-Sturmbataillon der 33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Charlemagne" (französische Nr. 1). 1939 Eisernes Kreuz I. Klasse: Mar. 1945 1939 Eisernes Kreuz II. Klasse: 22. Aug. 1944, Verwundetenabzeichen, 1939 in Schwarz: 1944 Croix de Guerre (France): 1940.
He was condemned to 40 years jail but was liberated after... 4 years...

We can very much discuss here about those men, trying to figure out if they were wrong, if they were Nazi, if they were whatever but, sorry, traitor is not adapted to their cases. I talk about the French because I know their history, but I am pretty sure that it is the same fro the other volunteers.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

they weren't officialy traitors (Frikorps Danmark) because the Danish government allowed them to serve, but conveniently forgot it after the war. such oppotunitists, them

Hi, Helmut,
The sentence of Chancellor Conrad Adenauer is quoted out of the context, sorry. He said that to explain why the former Waffen SS, except the ones condemned for war crimes, were receiving in the post-war RFA the same social benefits than the other veterans, that's all.

However, I have to slightly disagree with Sid Guttridge. the non-German Waffen SS fought only on the Eastern Front. For a Dane, a Norvegian, a Belgian, a French, etc... to be a traitor, he would had to fight against his own fellow citizen on his own soil.

We had some people that can be considered as traitors in France, such as the Bezen Perrot, the Franc Garde of the Milice and the ones who joined the French Gestapo services. Their targets were French Resistance fighters. They were considered as traitors after the war and many of them had to pay a heavy price for their acts.

Not the same with the French Waffen SS and LVF. They went to the Eastern Front to fight against the Soviets. After the war, many of them "slipped across" legal troubles, some were arrested, judged and condemned to jail sentences (The Bad Reichenhall executions is an other story, nothing to see).

Most of the ones who were condemned were released quite fast, i.e. as soon as the cold war started. One exemple:
Hauptsturmführer Henri Joseph Fenet, (1919 - 2002) Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes: 29 Apr. 1945 as SS-Hauptsturmführer, Kommandeur of SS-Sturmbataillon der 33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Charlemagne" (französische Nr. 1). 1939 Eisernes Kreuz I. Klasse: Mar. 1945 1939 Eisernes Kreuz II. Klasse: 22. Aug. 1944, Verwundetenabzeichen, 1939 in Schwarz: 1944 Croix de Guerre (France): 1940.
He was condemned to 40 years jail but was liberated after... 4 years...

We can very much discuss here about those men, trying to figure out if they were wrong, if they were Nazi, if they were whatever but, sorry, traitor is not adapted to their cases. I talk about the French because I know their history, but I am pretty sure that it is the same fro the other volunteers.

hi Daniel!

ah, I hear you mention this Henri Fenet on the forum quite a few times, do you know where to find a pic of him, etc?

and thanks for the intresting reply

helmut

[Laurent Daniel]

do you know where to find a pic of him, etc? and thanks for the intresting reply helmut

Hi Helmut,
Thanks
More about Joseph Henri Fenet at:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7259
See the pages about the Brigade Frankreich and the Division Charlemagne.
Re pix:

[sid guttridge]

Hi M.H. and HvM,

Treachery is defined in the law of each country.

In the case of the Danes standing around the grave in Berlin in 1945 it should be remembered that any period of ambiguity ended in August 1943 when the Germans fully occupied Denmark killing a number of loyal Dutch soldiers and sailors who resisted. After that those Danes in the W-SS can have been under no illusions (if they ever had them) that they were traitors by continuing to serve in German uniform.

It is also worth remembering that even in a parliamentary election in early 1943 pro-Nazi parties got only 2% of the vote (and presumably a good number of these were from Volksdeutsche). The Danes serving in the W-SS can hardly have been under any illusion that they were in any way representative of the Danish people!

___________________________________________________________________________

Hi Daniel,

You are right that there is plenty of scope for argument on the subject of which Frenchmen were traitors or not. There is, for example, a strong case that technically the Free French were the traitors.

However, I do not see service on the Eastern Front as any sort of absolution. Any Danes or Frenchmen who served on the Eastern Front merely allowed a similar number of Germans to serve on other fronts.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Sid,

You are right that there is plenty of scope for argument on the subject of which Frenchmen were traitors or not. There is, for example, a strong case that technically the Free French were the traitors

Good one! Yes, de Gaulle was a rebel and was condemned to death in 1940 by a French Martial Court that offered all the appearance of legality.
Technically, he was. Discussion about the "legality" of the Petain government is still polemical nowadays in France.

However, I do not see service on the Eastern Front as any sort of absolution. Any Danes or Frenchmen who served on the Eastern Front merely allowed a similar number of Germans to serve on other fronts.

Allow me to provide you with some elements to think about on that ground:
- 9 May 1945, Bad Reichenhall, Southern Germany:
11 French Waffen SS and one French LVF, POW of the US forces, are transfered to the French 2nd Armored Division of General Leclerc. They were all shot on the spot by the French, it seems on Leclerc order. Those men were on the Eastern Front because they wanted to fight against the Communists.
- 5 October 1945, Leclerc arrives in Saïgon. To do what? Fight the Communists. The 12 fighters executed at Bad Reichenhall would, I am sure, have been happy to go, place themselves under his command and give him a hand.
Food for thought?
Gimme your comments.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Daniel,

This incident has been mentioned before.

The execution was unarguably wrong.

If I remember rightly, the French sanction for serving in enemy uniform was death. (It should be remembered that in 1940 France and germany had only concluded an armistice, not peace. Therefore technically the Germans were still the enemy.)

Thus it was technically possible that if they had gone to trial they would have been executed for serving in enemy uniform. However, few of those frenchmen who were captured having served in enemy uniform and tried were, in fact, executed. Therefore these executions were probably avoidable deaths, even though the executed men were technically subject to the death penalty under law.

(It should be remembered that in 1940 France and Germany had only concluded an armistice, not peace. Therefore technically the Germans were still the enemy).

Leclerc did not go to Vietnam in 1945 to fight communists. He went there to re-establish a French colonial administration and suppress Vietnamese Nationalists under Ho-Ci-Minh. Prior to 1945 Ho Chi Minh had actually been sponsored by the Americans. Only later was he sponsored by Soviet and Chinese Communists.

Cheers,

Sid.

[panzermahn]

Hi M.H. and HvM,

Treachery is defined in the law of each country.

In the case of the Danes standing around the grave in Berlin in 1945 it should be remembered that any period of ambiguity ended in August 1943 when the Germans fully occupied Denmark killing a number of loyal Dutch soldiers and sailors who resisted. After that those Danes in the W-SS can have been under no illusions (if they ever had them) that they were traitors by continuing to serve in German uniform.

It is also worth remembering that even in a parliamentary election in early 1943 pro-Nazi parties got only 2% of the vote (and presumably a good number of these were from Volksdeutsche). The Danes serving in the W-SS can hardly have been under any illusion that they were in any way representative of the Danish people!

___________________________________________________________________________

Hi Daniel,

You are right that there is plenty of scope for argument on the subject of which Frenchmen were traitors or not. There is, for example, a strong case that technically the Free French were the traitors.

However, I do not see service on the Eastern Front as any sort of absolution. Any Danes or Frenchmen who served on the Eastern Front merely allowed a similar number of Germans to serve on other fronts.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid,

You're forgetting that the Danish Government authorized former Danish army soldiers and officers to volunteer for the Waffen SS and fight at the Eastern Front. But when Germany was defeated in 1945, the Danish Government suddenly proclaimed that the Danish volunteers should have known that the Government was acting under "duress" during the agreement with the German government in 1941.

And when the Danish Government executed Knud-Borge Martinsen, last commander of Freikorps Danmark in 1947, the Danish Parliament condemn this decision during the 60s

[panzermahn]

Hi Daniel,

This incident has been mentioned before.

The execution was unarguably wrong.

If I remember rightly, the French sanction for serving in enemy uniform was death. (It should be remembered that in 1940 France and germany had only concluded an armistice, not peace. Therefore technically the Germans were still the enemy.)

Thus it was technically possible that if they had gone to trial they would have been executed for serving in enemy uniform. However, few of those frenchmen who were captured having served in enemy uniform and tried were, in fact, executed. Therefore these executions were probably avoidable deaths, even though the executed men were technically subject to the death penalty under law.

(It should be remembered that in 1940 France and Germany had only concluded an armistice, not peace. Therefore technically the Germans were still the enemy).

Leclerc did not go to Vietnam in 1945 to fight communists. He went there to re-establish a French colonial administration and suppress Vietnamese Nationalists under Ho-Ci-Minh. Prior to 1945 Ho Chi Minh had actually been sponsored by the Americans. Only later was he sponsored by Soviet and Chinese Communists.

Cheers,

Sid.

Vichy French concluded an armistice with Germany but it was the Free French who executed those Franzosichen Waffen SS kameraden

Panzermahn

[sid guttridge]

Hi Panzermahn,

That is true, but it doesn't alter the fact that whether one was Vichy or Free French, technically the Germans were still the enemy because no peace had been concluded in 1940 or since.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Laurent Daniel]

Eh, eh, a little bit of provocation and Daniel creates a polemic at Feldgrau
Sid, I agree with you (As usual ) but with a little remark:

Concerning the repression in France against the former collaborators, the people who were shot by fire squad after a legal condemnation in a legal court trial were all collaborators who fought on the French soil, either politically (Laval, Brasillach to name 2) or within some armed group (Mainly the Franc Garde of the Milice, plus few from the Bezzen Perrot).

The treatment received by the former volunteers of the Eastern Front (LVF, Waffen SS,...) was different. The fact that they fought only against the Red Army was taken into consideration. Moreover, no case of war crime could be found against them (It doesn't mean they never committed one, but no documented proof ever came out). They were condemned to jail sentences and most if not all of them were released quite quickly (For exemple, Henri Fenet, 40 years sentence, liberated after 4 years only and amnistied).

Once again, nothing white, nothing black, only several shades of grey in those stories.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Hi M.H. and HvM,

Treachery is defined in the law of each country.

In the case of the Danes standing around the grave in Berlin in 1945 it should be remembered that any period of ambiguity ended in August 1943 when the Germans fully occupied Denmark killing a number of loyal Dutch soldiers and sailors who resisted. After that those Danes in the W-SS can have been under no illusions (if they ever had them) that they were traitors by continuing to serve in German uniform.

It is also worth remembering that even in a parliamentary election in early 1943 pro-Nazi parties got only 2% of the vote (and presumably a good number of these were from Volksdeutsche). The Danes serving in the W-SS can hardly have been under any illusion that they were in any way representative of the Danish people!

___________________________________________________________________________

Hi Daniel,

You are right that there is plenty of scope for argument on the subject of which Frenchmen were traitors or not. There is, for example, a strong case that technically the Free French were the traitors.

However, I do not see service on the Eastern Front as any sort of absolution. Any Danes or Frenchmen who served on the Eastern Front merely allowed a similar number of Germans to serve on other fronts.

Cheers,

Sid.

hi Sid, why do you say that Germans killed Dutch soldiers when fully occupying Denmark in 1943? Did you spell Danish wrong?

helmut