What if...

[Reb]

Draganov

We didn't really declare war on each other - as if we met and decided to fight.

Germany declared war on the US - we followed suit.

A colossal blunder on Hitler's part. And sometimes I wonder if pushing him towards that silly decision was not a colossal blunder on our part.

If you really want a "what if" try this: What if Roosevlet hadn't been a damn buffoon with a lust to fight Germany? What if Germany declared war on the US and a hypothetical (and very rare in the breech) US president with a brain in his head simply declined?

Can you do that? With the Atlantic as a border you might well be able to pull it off. "Sorry Mr. Hitler - but we don't like to fight in European Wars - always leads to something worse. Maybe next time."

What would Hitler have done?

The US meanwhile could have concentrated on beating Japan, quickly and decisively, while keeping China in the Western camp and presenting a whole South East Asia bloc of nations on our side - as a way of saying to Mr. Hitler that we may not like to fight but if we must...

Just a thought.

cheers
Reb

[phylo_roadking]

What would Hitler have done?

Full technology transfer to the Far East, and probably direct military aid. Imagine a Condor Legion II, or a Orient Korps? Imagine Japanese landforces with a leavening of German armour??? New Guinea, first, where the Australians threw everything they had in including their armour sto stop the Japanese. Then the north coast of Australia???

What price an island-hopping war whenever a Darwin Front would have to be bolstered....

[Dragunov]

but if the US kept to the Japs and didn't offer the brits much help, could/would europe have been captured? what if Mr Hitler didn't be a fool and he DIDNT declare war on USA?

[Reb]

The Germans were still whipped. The war for them was not lost on the western front.

Consider the Ardennes Offensive - one reason they attacked in the west was in the west, it might make a difference if you anhilated 20 or 30 enemy divisions. In the East they wouldn't even notice it.

Would it have made a difference if they'd not had to protect against Overlord? Great Britain was still there - probably a threat to the Italians and the Balkans. With raiders attacking the French coast to keep AH nervous.

So instead of 70-80 divs in France in '44 they might have had half that. It would have made a difference in the East but not enough IMHO to change the outcome.

I doubt Germany would have the resources to help Japan in any substantive way. The Ost Front consumed as much as they could send there. So for the Japanese technology perhaps but not panzers.

Any way you slice it, Ivan was going to be knocking on the door of the Reichstag. Would he have had the strength to punch all the way through and take western Europe?

Probably so. Without Overlord who was going to fight them? The resistance? Half commie anyway. And for those worthys a meeting with mean ole Mr. Reality was coming right up - in the form of the NKVD - just as they screwed the German communists (underground who'd been pining away for dear ole Uncle Joe's boys)

A different sort of cold war would probably have ensued. We'd have had the orient, they'd have most of Europe. England might have survived because of the exhaustion of the Soviet forces and that big moat they have.

Germany and France would be in the position (and mind set) of eastern europe as it is today. I have no idea what the US would be like in 2007 of that world.

cheers
Reb

[phylo_roadking]

A different sort of cold war would probably have ensued. We'd have had the orient, they'd have most of Europe. England might have survived because of the exhaustion of the Soviet forces and that big moat they have.

Exactly - "Airstrip One"

I don't think the British alone could have done anything in Italy or the Balkans - remember that even with Sicily/Italy in full swing they tried to "liberate" the Aegean on their own in 1943 - and got a very bloody nose.

Without the Americans landing in their rear to ensure the DAK's ultimate defeat, the UK's armed forces would have been frittered away in an endless back and forth desert war for years more.

[joefraser]

Hi
one point. Would the U.S. still have outproduced the axis states if Britain was no longer available as a base to bomb Germany from. German factories could produce without the threat of, even temporary, damage or destruction.
I would think they would still outproduce them, but not by a great enough margin to make a difference. W.W.2 in Europe would end up being one of blockade, small raids and resistance for many years and probably end with an agreement between the U.S. and the Axis and a totally different world to today.

[lwd]

I disagree the US could still have outproduced the Germans by quite a bit. The Germans also had that incredible "sink" of men and material on the Eastern Front. If the US stays out of the war in Europe even a year or so it's probably not that big of deal. The US is still ramping up their production and military. Might even have a bigger effect as it might go into full flood mode rather than building up as a trickle. Also the US would probably have even more equipment that it could aford to send the Britts and Soviets than it did historically.

[sgt fauver]

I submit that no German victory would have been possible as long as Hitler invaded Russia. The Soviet manpower superioity and natural resources were too much for the Germans. I admit that the US and the British propped up the Soviets, but the Wermacht was not preparred for the Red Army. Germany needed to subdue all of Europe first- western Europe- that means England and winning the Battle of Britain. Then, America would have been very vulnerable. Hitler knew the need to subdue the USA. Our industrial might and enginuity made for a dangerous combination for the Nazis. The Soviet Union could have come later- a generation later.

[sgt fauver]

Additionally, Japan would indeed have needed to own the Pacific for possible German invasion of America. My feeling is that Germany would have tried to keep Japan out of America, much like the USA kept the Russians out of Japan. However, German invasion of North America would have been problematic at best. For all the German combat power, combat experience, discipline, professionalism- they were severly handicapped on one major front-- LOGISTICS.

[Dragunov]

ah!

another disputable point:
would Red Russia have lost the Great Patriotic War if they didn't get the lend-lease stuff from the west, or would it just have taken a lot more time, a few more square kilometers and a few (!) million more men?

[Tom Houlihan]

I would submit that while Lend Lease was a great assist, it wasn't the most crucial factor.

The Red Army would have been victorious, ultimately, but it would have shed considerably more blood.

[Reb]

Lend lease was helpful in several critical areas - communications gear and trucks being probably the most important.

Ivan didn't think much of our tanks!

The key to answering your question Draganuv is simple: did Ivan stop the Germans before lend lease kicked in? Answer of course is yes.

Could Ivan have fought to a draw without it. I think so. But I doubt we'd see him in Berlin in '45. That's a long walk without all those yankee trucks. And how would he coordinate all those thousands of guns without comms gear?

cheers
Reb

[phylo_roadking]

Ivan didn't think much of our tanks!

...but he LOVED ours!

They really liked the cast armour of the Matilda, and liked the Valentine; there were still Valentines recorded in combat around Berlin in April 1945, despite the availability of so many more and "better" domestic breeds.

[Reb]

Phylo

Oddly enough, I'm a big fan of Valentine. I have always considered that one the truly handsome tanks.

they apparently weren't as found of the Churchill however!

And to avoid embarrassing my countrymen we won't talk about Lee / Grant...

cheers
Reb

[lwd]

...
Ivan didn't think much of our tanks!

Depends on which ones your are talking about. Shermans were apparently well liked.

The key to answering your question Draganuv is simple: did Ivan stop the Germans before lend lease kicked in? Answer of course is yes.

Could Ivan have fought to a draw without it. I think so. But I doubt we'd see him in Berlin in '45. That's a long walk without all those yankee trucks. And how would he coordinate all those thousands of guns without comms gear?
.

Pretty much agree here. It's not just trucks and comms either. It's rails, locomotives, explosives, food and raw material. If the war doesn't end before the winter of 45 Most (all?) of Europe is in for a seriuos famine. Without lend lease I see a long bloody stalemate in the East probably somewhere in Russia.