Total German tanks before the battle was 2,700 tanks. It defends on what book were you reading. Its confusing already.ljadw wrote:following "Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg" Bnd 8 P91,the tankstrength of AGS (operational numbers) was:
Pz III 409
Pz IV 426
Pz V 200
Pz VI 1O2
SG 240
kursk
Moderator: sniper1shot
Re: kursk
Re: kursk
The figures I have given ,are taken from the German archives(BA-MA)
I don't dispute the total tank number .
German tank strenght per division (on 1 july)
5PD: Pz III 17 PzIV 76 BefehlPz 9
8 Pz:Pz II 14 Pz III(short gun)25 PzIII(long gun) 34 Pz IV(short gun)8 PzIV(long gun)14 BefehlPz 6
185 SG Abt :36 SG
189 SG Abt:36 SG
18 PD:Pz II 5 PzIII(short gun)10 PZIII(long gun) 20 PZIV (short gun)5 PzIV (long gun) 29 BefPz 3
653 Panzerjaeger Abt:55 SG
654 PJ Abt:55(?) SG
177 SG Abt:36 SG
244 SG Abt:36 SG
216 (Schwere) Panzer Abt :45 SG
21 Panzer Brigade :PzIII(short gun):8 PzIII(lon gun) :7 Pz VI :31 SG 46
20 PD:Pz II :9 Pz III (short gun) 2 PzIII (long gun)15 PzIV(short gun) 9 PzIV(long gun) 40 BefPz 7
9PD:PzII 1 PzIII(short gun) 8 Pz III(long gun ) 30 PzIV (short gun) 8 PzIV(long gun) 30 Bef Pz:6
2PD: PzII 12 PzIII(short) 8 Pz III(long) 32 Pz IV (short) 1 Pz IV(long) 59 BefPz 6
254 SG Abt:36 SG
904 SG Abt:36 SG
312 Pz Company:22 SG
4 PD:PzIII(long) 15 PzIV (short) 1 PzIV(long) 79 BefPz 6
12PD:Pz II 6 PzIII(short) 15 PzIII (long) 21 PzIV (short)1 PzIV(long) 36 BefPz IV
AGS will follow
I don't dispute the total tank number .
German tank strenght per division (on 1 july)
5PD: Pz III 17 PzIV 76 BefehlPz 9
8 Pz:Pz II 14 Pz III(short gun)25 PzIII(long gun) 34 Pz IV(short gun)8 PzIV(long gun)14 BefehlPz 6
185 SG Abt :36 SG
189 SG Abt:36 SG
18 PD:Pz II 5 PzIII(short gun)10 PZIII(long gun) 20 PZIV (short gun)5 PzIV (long gun) 29 BefPz 3
653 Panzerjaeger Abt:55 SG
654 PJ Abt:55(?) SG
177 SG Abt:36 SG
244 SG Abt:36 SG
216 (Schwere) Panzer Abt :45 SG
21 Panzer Brigade :PzIII(short gun):8 PzIII(lon gun) :7 Pz VI :31 SG 46
20 PD:Pz II :9 Pz III (short gun) 2 PzIII (long gun)15 PzIV(short gun) 9 PzIV(long gun) 40 BefPz 7
9PD:PzII 1 PzIII(short gun) 8 Pz III(long gun ) 30 PzIV (short gun) 8 PzIV(long gun) 30 Bef Pz:6
2PD: PzII 12 PzIII(short) 8 Pz III(long) 32 Pz IV (short) 1 Pz IV(long) 59 BefPz 6
254 SG Abt:36 SG
904 SG Abt:36 SG
312 Pz Company:22 SG
4 PD:PzIII(long) 15 PzIV (short) 1 PzIV(long) 79 BefPz 6
12PD:Pz II 6 PzIII(short) 15 PzIII (long) 21 PzIV (short)1 PzIV(long) 36 BefPz IV
AGS will follow
Re: kursk
How about the number of APCs?ljadw wrote:The figures I have given, are taken from the German archives (BA-MA)
I don't dispute the total tank number.
German tank strength per division (on 1 July)
5 PD: Pz III 17, Pz IV 76, Bef Pz 9
8 PD: Pz II 14, Pz III (short gun) 25, Pz III (long gun) 34, Pz IV (short gun) 8, Pz IV (long gun) 14, Bef Pz 6
185 SG Abt: 36 SG
189 SG Abt: 36 SG
18 PD: Pz II 5, Pz III (short gun) 10, Pz III (long gun) 20, Pz IV (short gun) 5, Pz IV (long gun) 29, Bef Pz 3
653 Panzerjager Abt: 55 SG
654 Panzerjager Abt: 55(?) SG
177 SG Abt: 36 SG
244 SG Abt: 36 SG
216 (Schwere) Panzer Abt: 45 SG
21 Panzer Brigade: Pz III (short gun) 8, Pz III (long gun) 7, Pz VI 31, SG 46
20 PD: Pz II 9, Pz III (short gun) 2, Pz III (long gun) 15, Pz IV (short gun) 9, Pz IV (long gun) 40, Bef Pz 7
9 PD: Pz II 1, Pz III (short gun) 8, Pz III (long gun ) 30, Pz IV (short gun) 8, Pz IV (long gun) 30, Bef Pz 6
2 PD: Pz II 12, Pz III (short gun) 8, Pz III (long gun) 32, Pz IV (short gun) 1, Pz IV (long gun) 59, Bef Pz 6
254 SG Abt: 36 SG
904 SG Abt: 36 SG
312 Pz Company: 22 SG
4 PD: Pz III (long gun) 15, Pz IV (short gun) 1, Pz IV (long gun) 79, Bef Pz 6
12 PD: Pz II 6, Pz III (short gun) 15, Pz III (long gun) 21, Pz IV (short gun) 1, Pz IV (long) 36, Bef Pz 4
AGS will follow
How about the number of Army trucks & Jeeps?
How about the number of MP 43 assault rifles?
Thank you in advance...Keep in touch.
Re: kursk
operational tank strenght on 4 july for AGS
LSSAH
PzII 4
PzIII(long) 11
PzIV(long) 79
PzVI 12
BefPz 9
SG 34
Das Reich
PzIII(short) 1
PzIII(long) 47
PzIV (long) 30
PZVI 12
T 34 18
BefPz 8
SG 33
Totenkopf
Pz III(long)59
PzIV (short)5
PzIV(long)42
PzVI 11
BefPz VIII
SG 28
3PD
PzIII(short) 3
PzIII(long)27
PzIV (short) 17
PzIV(long)21
SG 2
11PD
PzIII(short)8
PzIII(long)42
PzIV(long)22
BefPz 8
SG 22
GD
PzIII(short)2
PzIII(long) 20
PzIV(short)7
PzIV(long)55
PzVI 14
BefPz 14
SG 34
51PzAbt 104 PzV
52 PzAbt 100 Pz V
911 SGAbt SG 31
905 SGAbt SG 25
393 SG Abt SG 25
6 PD (estimation!) :124 Pz - SG?
11PD(est) 1O3 PZ-SG ?
19 PD (est) 82 Pz -SG?
503 PzAbt 48 Pz VI
228SG Abt 25 SG
Sources:Angel Fire :Strength and losses .
LSSAH
PzII 4
PzIII(long) 11
PzIV(long) 79
PzVI 12
BefPz 9
SG 34
Das Reich
PzIII(short) 1
PzIII(long) 47
PzIV (long) 30
PZVI 12
T 34 18
BefPz 8
SG 33
Totenkopf
Pz III(long)59
PzIV (short)5
PzIV(long)42
PzVI 11
BefPz VIII
SG 28
3PD
PzIII(short) 3
PzIII(long)27
PzIV (short) 17
PzIV(long)21
SG 2
11PD
PzIII(short)8
PzIII(long)42
PzIV(long)22
BefPz 8
SG 22
GD
PzIII(short)2
PzIII(long) 20
PzIV(short)7
PzIV(long)55
PzVI 14
BefPz 14
SG 34
51PzAbt 104 PzV
52 PzAbt 100 Pz V
911 SGAbt SG 31
905 SGAbt SG 25
393 SG Abt SG 25
6 PD (estimation!) :124 Pz - SG?
11PD(est) 1O3 PZ-SG ?
19 PD (est) 82 Pz -SG?
503 PzAbt 48 Pz VI
228SG Abt 25 SG
Sources:Angel Fire :Strength and losses .
Re: kursk
So, the Final line-up for Citadel were: for the Wehrmachtljadw wrote:Operational Tank Strength on 4 July for AGS
LSSAH
Pz II 4
Pz III (long) 11
Pz IV (long) 79
Pz VI 12
Bef Pz 9
SG 34
Das Reich
Pz III (short) 1
Pz III (long) 47
Pz IV (long) 30
PZ VI 12
T 34 18
Bef Pz 8
SG 33
Totenkopf
Pz III (long) 59
Pz IV (short) 5
Pz IV (long) 42
Pz VI 11
Bef Pz VIII
SG 28
3PD
Pz III (short) 3
Pz III (long) 27
Pz IV (short) 17
Pz IV (long) 21
SG 2
11PD
Pz III (short) 8
Pz III (long) 42
Pz IV (long) 22
Bef Pz 8
SG 22
GD
Pz III (short) 2
Pz III (long) 20
Pz IV (short) 7
Pz IV (long) 55
Pz VI 14
Bef Pz 14
SG 34
51 Pz Abt 104 Pz V
52 Pz Abt 100 Pz V
911 SG Abt SG 31
905 SG Abt SG 25
393 SG Abt SG 25
6 PD (estimation!):124 Pz -SG ?
11 PD (est) 1O3 PZ-SG ?
19 PD (est) 82 Pz-SG ?
503 Pz Abt 48 Pz VI
228 SG Abt 25 SG
Sources:Angel Fire :Strength and losses .
900,000 troops (of which 570,000 are combat troops)
2,700 tanks & assault guns
10,000 guns & mortars
2,500 aircraft
6,000 Panzerfaust
MP 43 assault rifles (?)
'Goliath' demolition tanks (?)
'Foot-Stuka' APCs (?)
'Nebelwerfer' rocket-mortars (?)
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Re: kursk
Interestigly, why usually is not counting Panzerjaegers (Marder etc.)?
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Re: kursk
the Luftwaffe strenght is MUCH to high (higher than the strenght for the whole east front):
VIII Fliegerkorps :Ist-starke :923,operational :732
1Fliegerdivision :Ist-starke:819,operational :640
Hungarian airforce :45,operational :41
VIII Fliegerkorps :Ist-starke :923,operational :732
1Fliegerdivision :Ist-starke:819,operational :640
Hungarian airforce :45,operational :41
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Re: kursk
So what? On Soviet side this type of vehicles is counting.Jan-Hendrik wrote:Because they are counted as Selfpropelled guns?
Jan-Hendrik
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Re: kursk
Do you know number of LW personell?ljadw wrote:the Luftwaffe strenght is MUCH to high
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Re: kursk
Because of the the german designational system? In German Zustandsberichte they appear in the column "Pak (Sf)"paul_atrydes wrote:So what? On Soviet side this type of vehicles is counting.Jan-Hendrik wrote:Because they are counted as Selfpropelled guns?
Jan-Hendrik
And german reports did not care how soviet side would count that
Jan-Hendrik
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Re: kursk
I told about historical researches.Jan-Hendrik wrote:Because of the the german designational system? In German Zustandsberichte they appear in the column "Pak (Sf)"
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Re: kursk
Whats your problem wit the term selfpropelled gun or Pak(Selbstfahrlette)?
Jan-Hendrik
Jan-Hendrik