Should the Graf Spee have gone down swinging?

German Kriegsmarine 1935-1945.
phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Given that something like 2000 civilian ships were at sea in any month, its unlikely even 100 Auxiliary Cruisers would be in each others way, given how hugh the oceans of the world were.
And doubly so - given that they operated away from convoy routes in order to pick off unescorted ships, or haunted the coasts of South America and Africa and India to be purposely far away from enemy patrols.

Something else for people to remember - the armament of an Auxiliary cruiser was often much heavier than any destroyer that was hunting them, it needed a flotilla of same or a capital ship to be sure of sinking her at minimal cost.

And there was after all a practical limit to which major surface vessels could detach from convoy duty to cover other requirements, I think the standard RN rule was a day's sailing out and back unless at the command of the Admiralty in London - hence being able to pull BBs off convoy work in the North Atlantic to hunt for Bismarck. A calculated risk that COULD have been disastrous.
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sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Paul,

You are still overlooking the point that it doesn't take regular warships to counter auxilary cruisers - just other auxiliary cruisers. The British had an almost limitless supply of Armed Merchant Cruisers.

Given that they had no real prospect of gaining maritime supremacy with their own fleet, the best bet the Germans had was to complicate the British task by presenting a variety of different challenges that required a variety of responses from the Royal Navy. This, I would suggest, is what the Germans did.

It only took a handful of submarine minelayers to cause the British to build hundreds of minesweepers, boom defence vessels, etc. Unarmed blockade runners caused the fitting out of a whole class of British ocean boarding vessels. Some 15 German auxiliary cruisers, only a minority of whom were ever at sea, caused the British to fit out and keep several times as many Armed Merchant Cruisers at sea permanently. A pocket battleship or battlecruiser on the loose similarly caused a disproportional response from the Royal Navy. Even doing nothing the Tirpitz required a shadow force to be kept opposite her with steam up.

In only one area - submarine attacks on ocean going merchant traffic - could Germany possibly have turned the course of the war. If Germany had invested as heavily in any other naval threat, it was doomed to defeat. Pocket battleships and converted merchant cruisers could only ever be auxiliary to this. Their value was less in what they might directly sink than in broadening the threat and diverting and stretching British resources.

One further point. Had the German Army not been successful in taking the whole continental European coastline from Norway to the Spanish border, then Germany would have found it virtually impossible to pose any ocean-going surface naval threat at all after the first few months of the war had seen those ships already at sea hunted down. It would have been a rerun of WWI with the Royal Navy in an even stronger position to blockade the North Sea in the absence of any real equivalent to the German High Seas Fleet of 1914-18.

Cheers,

Sid.
lwd
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Post by lwd »

double post

might as well use it however.

The other thing is that while the oceans may be hugh most commercial trafic is concentrated in certain areas. Between convoying and patroling these areas German raiders can expect to hit the point of diminishing returns fairly quickly. Especially sence encountering just about any warship means their carrear is over and even a weaker allied armed merchant can prove to be a end to the cruise if not the raider.
Last edited by lwd on Tue May 08, 2007 5:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by lwd »

phylo_roadking wrote:
The Bismark got extremly lucky and even so was mission killed in the engagment. She couldn't hope to do as well agains 2 modern BBs that were fully worked up
Luck played no part in what either the Germans OR the British expected her to be able to do. Remember, at this point - on her maiden voyage - her capabilities were entirely unproven. But the Admiralty expected to have to concentrate at least three BBs to sink her in a straight engagement. So whether she could or couldn't "do as well" is entirely moot - its what both sides thought she could do that they had to plan for!!!
I'd like to see some documentation on this. However even if they thought 3 BBs were required to sink Bismark 2 had a very good chance of putting her out of action. Indeed but for a lucky hit Bismark would probably have ended up as a floating wreck at Denmark straights.
She wasn't "mission killed" in that engagement, that occured when she took the first torpedo hits. It was the loss of bunkered fuel oil that forced the course change towards Brest and brought her within range of Ark Royal. Remember, for a short time after that until she was acquired again from the air, the Suffolk and Norfolk lost contact with her and at THAT point she was truly "loose" in the Atlantic - exactly her intended mission!
Yes loose in the Atlantic with limited oil and the British closing in. The loss of the oil effectivly mission killed her.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Indeed but for a lucky hit Bismark would probably have ended up as a floating wreck at Denmark straights.
"a lucky hit" - LWD, go and read up on the history of the battlecruiser class, particularly in the Royal Navy. The incidence of magazine fires and crack-ups is frightening Maybe lucky in that it happened second salvo....but a known and recognised problem.

And Hood and PoW versus Bismarck and Pronz Eugen, well inside each parties' maximum range? Better than fair....
Yes loose in the Atlantic with limited oil and the British closing in. The loss of the oil effectivly mission killed her.
Limited oil? She had only lost 12% of her bunkered fuel and had reduced the loss to a trickle. That still give her some 2 months' at sea. Her orders were to break out of the G-I-UK Gap, throw off her RN pursuit, and attack convoys mid-ocean. At the tile Lutjens made the decision to head for Brest he had completed two of the three elements, and the most difficult, without major loss or damage. As for the British closing in...closing in yes - but in contact with her or knowing her position? No. Although a lot of ass-covering bullsh1t was talked at the time about her re-acquisition, she spent half a day out of contact in bad weather in the middle of a VERY big ocean. Only that re-acquisition by the Catalina with the very dubious crew, allowing the airstrike against her, stopped her from carrying on to complete her mission IF Lutjens had decided to press on rather than head for Brest.

I see "mission killed" has now changed to "effectively" mission killed......
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Post by Tiornu »

Hood did not sink because she was a battlecriser. Keep in mind that, when she commissioned, she was arguably the best-protected ship in the RN.
Arguments over the concept of luck are a giant waste of time.
Bismarck was mission-killed by the hit to her bow. It's demonstrable fact. She broke off her mission because of the bow hit.
Two months at sea?
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Tiornu, thats the figures I've seen for full bunkerage, but admittedly they look VERY generous to me!
Hood did not sink because she was a battlecriser. Keep in mind that, when she commissioned, she was arguably the best-protected ship in the RN
No, didn't say she sank because she was a battlecruiser, but she sank because of a major problem that ship-for-ship affected battlecruisers more than others. An identified fault with the class. As for best-protected, yes - those parts of her that were protected were arguably the best in the RN at that time...BUT this would not have been the case of several keels laid down pre-1922 had been completed and if later vessels hadn't been laid down to conform with the Washington Treaty. There were several noted weak points where her armour belts joined and overlapped, and the 5000 tons of armour and bracing added to her design after Jutland led to her being less of a "battlecruiser", more of a "fast battleship" - remember, at this time the RN called ANY BB able to steam at over 24 knots as a Battlecruiser! - BUT didn't remove any of the battlecruiser-type faults from her basic Admiral-class design; only the forward cordite magazines were moved below the shell rooms — lwd, cordite explosions destroyed the three RN battlecruisers lost at Jutland. The deck and side armour did not provide continuous protection against shells arriving at all angles, and most seriously of all the deck protection was still flawed. It was spread over three decks, it was designed to explode an incoming shell on impact with the top deck, with much of the energy being absorbed as the exploding shell had to penetrate the armour of the next two decks. The development of effective time delay shells during WWI made this much less effective than when planned, as the incoming shell would penetrate the weaker armour and explode inside the ship.
Hood did not sink because she was a battlecriser
So if you know the class of ship you're designing has major faults, and you don't engineer them out but instead try to paper over the cracks - and she explodes and sinks because of one or more of those vulnerabilities...what would you call it?
only the forward cordite magazines were moved below the shell rooms
Remember, it was a hit in the REAR thus unprotected 4" magazines running forward belowdecks into the forward magazines that did for her. In other words, they didn't design out the main battlecruiser flaws, and designed in several of her very own to complement them.

So you're right - given ALL these weaknesses, and the condition of the ship with refit after refit bein postponed or only half-finished - any talk of "luck" in her demise IS very inappropriate.
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Post by Tiornu »

I'm not sure what you're saying. The only incomplete ships from pre-1922 were Hood's sisters. Since no battlecruiser-specific attributes can be fixed as causes for Hood's loss, Hood's status as a battlecruiser is irrelevant. An "R" class battleship would have been vulnerable to the same hit. What's significant is the fact that she had never been modernized. So rather than reading up on British battlecruisers, a better course would be to read up on Bretagne's loss.
It was Hood's aft main magazines that exploded. The forward magazines did not explode.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Since no battlecruiser-specific attributes can be fixed as causes for Hood's loss, Hood's status as a battlecruiser is irrelevant
??? look at the board of enquiry. Unprotected 4" magazine stowage, insufficient and badly-designed deck armour leaving her vulnerable to dropping fire...and a number of armour joints leaving her the same from dropping shot impacting her on her sides at various points. The "spaced" deck armour was an attempt to improve on her all-up protection but NOT at the expense of loosing her her "battlecruiser" speed - remember that as of 1916 there was NO provision AT ALL for mid-and after-deck armouring! - BUT left her vulnerable to dropping shot in a number of vital locations....as well as trapping explosions from penetrating time-fused shells belowdecks. So how on earth can you say that "no battlecruiser-specific attributes can be fixed as causes for Hood's loss" when design compromises and mistakes made purely because she was a battlecruiser and the RN attempted to eradicate her inbuilt faults and did so incorrectly were what led directly to her loss, together whith her class vulnerability to magazine hits???

I know there have been many and various reasons for her loss put forward - BUT its amazing how close to the original board of enquiry report the various dives on the wreck have now put the cause of her sinking.
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Paul Lakowski
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Post by Paul Lakowski »

lwd wrote:double post

might as well use it however.

The other thing is that while the oceans may be hugh most commercial trafic is concentrated in certain areas. Between convoying and patroling these areas German raiders can expect to hit the point of diminishing returns fairly quickly. Especially sence encountering just about any warship means their carrear is over and even a weaker allied armed merchant can prove to be a end to the cruise if not the raider.
Roughly 3/4 of all commercial shipping during the war went unescorted, not being part of any convoys. And my most accounts the Auxiliary Raiders that were sunk were done so by warships not RN armed merchant ships which as I recall were built to try and field a more workable Northern Patrol vessel.

http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/miscell ... ction.html

From this site, 5 out of the 6 Auxiliary Raiders that were sunk were done so by warships and only one by Liberty ship. Also note that 5 out of 12 missions completed their runs without being intercepted , that despite numerous sinkings of enemy vessels.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Roughly 3/4 of all commercial shipping during the war went unescorted, not being part of any convoys.
Paul, agreed! People forget the HUGE amount of "coastal" freighting that went on - not only around the coast of the UK, but still around the coasts of Europe...and HUGE amounts along the Atlantic coasts of North and South America, the Pacific Rim, the Indian Ocean and the Atlantic coast of Africa.. For overall lack of escorts for most of the war, the convoy system could only cover certain vital sealanes and routes....that were going to be most prone to attack by being within reach of U-Boats and more likely to carry war materiel and personnel. It was the best-fit solution for a BIG problem. It has also been argued that convoys "gathered" vital shipping together - and that in the end the ONLY truly successful ASW weapon from day one of WWII would have been proper long-range maritime patrol aircraft with surface-resolution radar...operating at the direction of Ultra from a LOT earlier than mid-1941!!!
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Post by Paul Lakowski »

sid guttridge wrote:Hi Paul,

You are still overlooking the point that it doesn't take regular warships to counter auxilary cruisers - just other auxiliary cruisers. The British had an almost limitless supply of Armed Merchant Cruisers.

Given that they had no real prospect of gaining maritime supremacy with their own fleet, the best bet the Germans had was to complicate the British task by presenting a variety of different challenges that required a variety of responses from the Royal Navy. This, I would suggest, is what the Germans did.

It only took a handful of submarine minelayers to cause the British to build hundreds of minesweepers, boom defence vessels, etc. Unarmed blockade runners caused the fitting out of a whole class of British ocean boarding vessels. Some 15 German auxiliary cruisers, only a minority of whom were ever at sea, caused the British to fit out and keep several times as many Armed Merchant Cruisers at sea permanently. A pocket battleship or battlecruiser on the loose similarly caused a disproportional response from the Royal Navy. Even doing nothing the Tirpitz required a shadow force to be kept opposite her with steam up.

In only one area - submarine attacks on ocean going merchant traffic - could Germany possibly have turned the course of the war. If Germany had invested as heavily in any other naval threat, it was doomed to defeat. Pocket battleships and converted merchant cruisers could only ever be auxiliary to this. Their value was less in what they might directly sink than in broadening the threat and diverting and stretching British resources.

One further point. Had the German Army not been successful in taking the whole continental European coastline from Norway to the Spanish border, then Germany would have found it virtually impossible to pose any ocean-going surface naval threat at all after the first few months of the war had seen those ships already at sea hunted down. It would have been a rerun of WWI with the Royal Navy in an even stronger position to blockade the North Sea in the absence of any real equivalent to the German High Seas Fleet of 1914-18.

Cheers,

Sid.

Given that the allies could count on a fleet of 10,000 merchant ships to start and a building capacity of hundreds per year to start with , swelling to thousands per year by the time the yanks arrived , the German uboat fleet had to build to a capability of sinking something like 500 allied vessels per month to have any chance of success. By themselves the Uboats could never hope to defeat the Allies.

The key to the failure of any weapon is usually the lack of a realistic strategy and this is clearly an example. The most important lesson for Germany from WW-I was to avoid getting into a war of attrition, so that could not be the basis of a naval strategy. The land solution to this was direct assault and this was clearly the way to go agains the UK. So the strategy Germany adopted was doomed from the start, since it had no end game.

Germany could match the RN in personnel numbers and guns [captured] but they could not match the RN in warships....so they had to resort to radical solutions.They could build an entire fleet based on captured vessels converted into auxiliary warships at a fraction of the price and time of building a conventional fleet. While this could not replace conventional warships, they could fill roles and pervent valuable shipbuilding assets from being diverted away from building such a fleet. This gobbled up a hugh share of the ship building efforts during the war.The totals were 560K tons [Tboot/Rboot/Mboot/Sboot/KFK/MFP] plus another ~500k tons converted Vboot , the Uboat fleets totaled ~905K tons.

German navy was tasked with three essential missions, which they did quite well historically considering how far they had to go. Coastal defense [> 3000 vessels] , local convoy escorting and training plus offensive commerce warfare against the enemy. Auxiliary warships could have been utilised to cover most if not all of these missions to free up ship building to concentrate on building a battlefleet.

European commercial fleets counted some 40,000 vessels of which 1/3 was directly accessable to Allies and 2/3 to the Axis. The Axis could count on expanding a fleet from ~4000 to ~10,000 vessels during the war as Europe is occupied.Any where from 2000-3000 would be needed for continued sea transport , but the rest could be utilised if suitably adapted.

Then theres the issue of using captured enemy naval fleets. In some cases [France], they only got 10% and most was of little use, but in other cases they captured 2/3 [Italy] of which a good portion was put to usage right away. The Belgian, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian & French fleets between them counted about 800 vessels, so not an insignificant amount. A comprehensive policy for seizeing these fleets could have been in place from before the war began.

BTW ,The reason why the Brits had to build a hugh fleet of minesweepers had much more to do with the fact that the germans laid 225,000 sea mines during the war. Every german warshipAuxiliary ships could lay mines...even the minesweepers themselves. By comparison the germans had to devote 40% of their entire fleet in minesweeping operations , ~ 1500 vessels as I recall.
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Post by Tiornu »

Unprotected 4" magazine stowage
The 4in magazines were all behind belt armor.
insufficient and badly-designed deck armour leaving her vulnerable to dropping fire
Yes, just as in other unmodernized battleships.
a number of armour joints leaving her the same from dropping shot impacting her on her sides at various points.
Maybe you can explain what you're trying to say here.
The "spaced" deck armour was an attempt to improve on her all-up protection but NOT at the expense of loosing her her "battlecruiser" speed
Her deck protection was better than that of RN battleships, with a single 3in lamination covering the full width of the ship over the magazines.
remember that as of 1916 there was NO provision AT ALL for mid-and after-deck armouring
Again, you'll have to explain what you're trying to say.
BUT left her vulnerable to dropping shot in a number of vital locations
Do you understand that this was a typical battleship feature?
So how on earth can you say that "no battlecruiser-specific attributes can be fixed as causes for Hood's loss"
The same way you can. You've just listed a number of battleship qualities that would leave an unmodernized battleship vulnerable to modern combat.
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Post by Paul Lakowski »

phylo_roadking wrote:
Roughly 3/4 of all commercial shipping during the war went unescorted, not being part of any convoys.
Paul, agreed! People forget the HUGE amount of "coastal" freighting that went on - not only around the coast of the UK, but still around the coasts of Europe...and HUGE amounts along the Atlantic coasts of North and South America, the Pacific Rim, the Indian Ocean and the Atlantic coast of Africa.. For overall lack of escorts for most of the war, the convoy system could only cover certain vital sealanes and routes....that were going to be most prone to attack by being within reach of U-Boats and more likely to carry war materiel and personnel. It was the best-fit solution for a BIG problem. It has also been argued that convoys "gathered" vital shipping together - and that in the end the ONLY truly successful ASW weapon from day one of WWII would have been proper long-range maritime patrol aircraft with surface-resolution radar...operating at the direction of Ultra from a LOT earlier than mid-1941!!!

Yes , there is little doubt that land based patrol bombers using cm radars directed through Ultra was like having satellite radar and spelt the doom for any German naval operation, unless they could counter such threats. For Germany all roads lead to an assault on UK within a year or two of the start of the war... the longer they leave it the more impossible the western front becomes.

These auxiliary raiders through disguise could dissapear and remain at sea for up to a year with only periodic resupply. They could dip in and out of the convoy lanes and join the hundreds of other ships at sea in that ocean. In fact until the RN set up special signaling and tracking system in 1942, these raiders regularly slipped away after attack. But even with such a system, they still got away many times. No conventional warship could hope to approach that level of omnipresence or endurance in raiding operations. So if the aim of the naval campaign was commerce warfare , building anything above a torpedoboot was pointless.

The truth of the matter is that short of that level of penetration into the enemy intelligence, finding these disguised raiders in the wide open ocean was a 'needle in a haystack search'. Even finding a conventional warship in such conditions was mostly luck in the first years of the war.
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Paul,

The U-boats were the only threat that could possibly be built fast enough and in sufficient numbers to threaten Allied ocean going traffic. They had a chance to defeat Britain, even on their own. All other naval threats could only ever be secondary, given the vulnerability of converted merchant ships and the long build time of major surface warships.

In particular, you will note that the German auxiliary cruisers only operated in strength in the remote southern hemisphere. This was because they could not possibly survive long in North Atlantic waters even before the air gap was filled. They were so intent on hiding at the bottom of the globe that they could go up to a year without sinking anything. Yet these same North Atlantic waters in which they could hardly survive were the only ones in which UK trade could be fatally strangled.

Germany did not capture two-thirds of the Italian merchant fleet. It may have captured two-thirds of the surviving Italian merchant fleet, but most of the Italian merchant fleet had already been lost or rendered hors de combat by then. Indeed, it was increasingly reliant on the French merchant ships captured by the Germans at Marseilles in November 1942. (Besides, how are the Italian and/or French merchantmen going to get out of the Mediterranean?).

Certainly the Germans could lay huge defensive mine barrages. However, only their minecarrying submarines were an offensive threat in the Atlantic outside the Channel and North Sea. Even inside the Channel and North Sea German offensive mining never stopped British traffic. Look at the mine clearance efforts the British had to make in West Africa for the rest of the war after a single U-boat laid a couple of dozen mines off Takoradi and Lagos in 1941, (which sank only a single dredger, if I recall).

The whole proposition of trying to convert the bulk of the continental merchant fleet into ocean-going auxiliary wearships is a non-starter. They would have been shot to pieces by Allied regular warships, etc. The only reason why the few that were used as raiders had any success was because they were of high speed and endurance (unlike most merchantmen) and operated in remote places where they had some survivability but no prospect of decisively influencing the war.

Cheers,

Sid.
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