Arthur "Bomber " Harris.....

[Rajin Cajun]

I agree pzrmeyer Dresden is the perfect example of why I consider it a useless gesture as well as just plain sadistic. I'm sure the average German did not want to surrender after Dresden because if someone is barbaric enough to do something like that during a war then occupation will be just as destructive.

[phylo_roadking]

The British idea was that EVEN if momma, papa and the sprogs lived...papa would be too busy for a couple of days settling them somewhere else, getting new area ration cards etc., THEN a tearful momma wouldnt let him go back to his overhead widget fruggler in the factory. Problem is - thats exactly what the citizems of London, Liverpool, Coventry, Belfast, Southhampton DID do - got back out of the Underground station each morning, or trekked back in from kipping in the nearby potato fields (family recollections, that one) then went straight back to work. THIS was after a year of AWFUL war news, defeat after defeat - what Churchill called the Dunkirk Spirit....
So why on earth did they come up with the fanciful idea that if they did the same BACK to a civilian population where rationing was only just starting to hit, AND its morale buoyed up by victory after victory....theyd just sit down and give in?
What are the figures - 55,000 aircrew killed? A lot is made of how at that time in the war it was the only way the British could hit back.....so THAT explains why the Desert Air Force was starved of planes, and the Far East basically ignored by the RAF? Take a few tens of thousands of those aircrew and send them to North Africa, or India, and invest the Heavy Bomber construction programme - or a bit of it - in those theatres and who knows what victories might have been won, or not given away? Look how long Tobruk held out with very little air cover - what if they had more? Or if the troops in the second MUCH shorter siege had proper aircover and fighter-bomber support?
If you look at it dispassionately - the War Cabinet just seemed to want to even up the all-over body count .......

[Torquez]

here were no military sites in Dresden.
There were no industrial sites in Dresden
There was no military importance of Dresden.
There was no industrial importance of Dresden.
There was no defence of Dresden.
The bombing wasn't made to disrupt anything.
The bombing wasn't made to change anything.
The bombing was only made to see how effectively RAF can kill people and destroy cities by bombing. By using German city and German civilians as test subjects.

You are completely incorrect.I advise to research the topic more before posting such theories.Unlike Frampol, Dresden had military significance, industrial facilities and was defended.
https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/P ... resden.htm

It was, however, because of its geographical location and topography and as a primary communications center that Dresden assumed major significance as a military target in February 1945, as the Allied ground forces moved eastward and the Russian armies moved westward in the great combined operations designed to entrap and crush the Germans into final defeat.
7. Geographically and topographically, Dresden commanded two great and historic traffic routes of primary military significance: north-south between Germany and Czechoslovakia through the valley and gorge of the Elbe river, and east-west along the foot of the central European uplands.5 The geographical and topographical importance of Dresden as the lower bastion in the vast Allied-Russian war of movement against the Germans in the closing months of the war in Europe.

8. As a primary communications center, Dresden was the junction of three great trunk routes in the German railway system: (1) Berlin-Prague-Vienna, (2) Munich-Breslau, and (3) Hamburg-Leipzig. As a key center in the dense Berlin-Leipzig railway complex, Dresden was connected to both cities by two main lines.6 The density, volume, and importance of the Dresden-Saxony railway system within the German geography and e economy is seen in the facts that in 1939 Saxony was seventh in area among the major German states, ranked seventh in its railway mileage, but ranked third in the total tonnage carried by rail.7

9. In addition to its geographical position and topography and its primary importance as a communications center, Dresden was, in February 1945, known to contain at least 110 factories and industrial enterprises that were legitimate military targets, and were reported to have employed 50,000 workers in arms plants alone.8 Among these were dispersed aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabric Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); the great Zeiss Ikon A.G., Germany’s most important optical goods manufactory; and, among others, factories engaged in the production of electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel A.G.), gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke), and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler).9
10. Specific military installations in Dresden in February 1945 included barracks and hutted camps and at least one munitions storage depot.10
11. Dresden was protected by antiaircraft defenses , antiaircraft guns and searchlights, in anticipation of Allied air raids against the city.11 The Dresden air defenses were under the Combined Dresden (Corps Area IV) and Berlin (Corps Area III) Luftwaffe Administration Commands.12

. As related in paragraphs 5-11 above, Dresden became a military target as (1), and of overriding importance, a primary communications center in the Berlin-Leipzig-Dresden railway complex; (2) as an important industrial and manufacturing center directly associated with the production of aircraft components and other military items, including poison gas, anti-aircraft and field guns, and small guns; and (3) as an area containing specific military installations. The night raid by the RAF Bomber Command was intended to devastate the city area itself and thereby choke communications within the city and disrupt the normal civilian life upon which the larger communications activities and the manufacturing enterprises of the city depended. Further, the widespread area raid conducted by the British entailed bombing strikes against the many industrial plants throughout the city which were thus to be construed as specific targets within the larger pattern of the area raid.44

I have provided necessary data that shows Dresden was targeted due to its military and industrial significance.It is clearly a wholy different case then bombing an undefended civilian target for the pure test of how many people can be killed by bombing.

[M.H.]

I have provided necessary data that shows Dresden was targeted due to its military and industrial significance.

A lie....again...

Two drafts of a letter from Churchill on area bombing, 28 March 1945 and 1 April 1945
(Catalogue ref: CAB 120/303)

Source 3a


TOP SECRET 10 Downing Street,
Whitehall.

PRIME MINISTER'S
PERSONAL TELEGRAM
SERIAL No D.83/5
Resubmitted
GENERAL ISMAY FOR C.O.S. COMMITTEE. See D.89/5

C.A.S.
WITHDRAWN
See Genl Ismay's minute
on 30/3/45 submitting
a redraft of
this of 30/3

It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land. We shall not, for instance, be able to get housing materials out of Germany for our own needs because some temporary provision would have to be made for the Germans themselves. The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforth be more strictly studied in our own interests rather than that of the enemy.

The Foreign Secretary has spoken to me on this subject, and I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives, such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive.

Source 3b

28.3.45
TOP SECRET 10 Downing Street,
Whitehall.

PRIME MINISTER'S
PERSONAL MINUTE
SERIAL No D.89/5

GENERAL ISMAY FOR C.O.S. COMMITTEE.

C.A.S. (copy sent)

It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of the so called "area bombing" of German cities should be reviewed from the point of view of our own interests. If we come into control of an entirely ruined land, there will be a great shortage of accommodation for ourselves and our Allies: and we shall be unable to get housing materials out of Germany for our own needs because some temporary provision would have to be made for the Germans themselves. We must see to it that our attacks do not do more harm to ourselves in the long run than they do to the enemy's immediate war effort. Pray let me have your views.
W.S.C.
1.4.45

Again for clarification:

"....It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed.
....
The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. ..."

Now tell me why should that concept being reviewed if it only revolved around military targets??? Even Churchill admitted that Dresden was a crime!:roll:

More:

Lindemann's report:

On the above date [March 30, 1942] Prof. F. A. Lindemann, later, Lord Cherwell, the Prime Minister's Science Advisor and a Jewish refugee from Germany, delivered to Winston Churchill a fateful report. In his book Bomber Command Max Hastings stated that
"Cherwell's Report provided the final rationalization for the program Bomber Command was undertaking, and it would henceforth be paper-clipped to the plans of the bomber offensive."
Lindemann estimated that every 40 tons of bombs "dropped on built-up areas" would "make 4,000 to 8,000 people homeless." This report to the PM stated: "In 1938 over 22 million Germans lived in 58 towns of over 100,000 inhabitants, which, with modern equipment, should be easy to find and hit." Hastings concluded that Lindemann "hoped to create a nation of refugees, and no doubt also a good many corpses under the rubble, although he was too genteel to say so."

An eye witness:

On 13th February 1945 I was a navigator on one of the Lancaster bombers which devastated Dresden. I well remember the briefing by our Group Captain. We were told that the Red Army was thrusting towards Dresden and that the town would be crowded with refugees and that the center of the town would be full of women and children. Our aiming point would be the market place.

I recall that we were somewhat uneasy, but we did as we were told. We accordingly bombed the target and on our way back our wireless operator picked up a German broadcast accusing the RAF of terror tactics, and that 65,000 civilians had died. We dismissed this as German propaganda.

The penny didn't drop until a few weeks later when my squadron received a visit from the Crown Film Unit who were making the wartime propaganda films. There was a mock briefing, with one notable difference. The same Group Captain now said, 'as the market place would be filled with women and children on no account would we bomb the center of the town. Instead, our aiming point would be a vital railway junction to the east.

I can categorically confirm that the Dresden raid was a black mark on Britain's war record. The aircrews on my squadron were convinced that this wicked act was not instigated by our much-respected guvnor 'Butch' Harris but by Churchill. I have waited 29 years to say this, and it still worries me." (17)
A. Williams, Nottingham; The Observer, August,8th,1984

The Truth:
"We were told that the Red Army was thrusting towards Dresden and that the town would be crowded with refugees and that the center of the town would be full of women and children. Our aiming point would be the market place."

The Lie:
"The same Group Captain now said, 'as the market place would be filled with women and children on no account would we bomb the center of the town. Instead, our aiming point would be a vital railway junction to the east.

[Torquez]

Even Churchill admitted that Dresden was a crime!

You are seeing this. Nowhere in his writing he claims bombing legitimate military targets such as Dresden is a crime.
I refuse to adress your claims untill they are given sourced link.

[M.H.]

Okay Torquez....please tell me YOUR interpretation of Churchills words!

"....It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed.
....
The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. ...

That could be interesting...I'm waiting....

[M.H.]

I refuse to adress your claims untill they are given sourced link.

Churchills quote? Just google!
But here you can see a copy:

http://www.learningcurve.gov.uk/heroesv ... cs3s3a.htm

or here:

http://www.answers.com/topic/dresden-ch ... letter-jpg

It's no secret!

[Torquez]

In the letter Churchill clearly remarks that military targets must be studied harder, thus indicating that indeed Dresden was military target.

Churchills quote? Just google!

Source of the other quotes ?

[M.H.]

ROFLMAO!

After lying comes the wriggling again???

Come on..give your waiting audience your personal interpretation of Churchills famous words!

"....It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed.
....
The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. ...

[Torquez]

Yawn.
"Im in the opinion that military objectives must be"

[M.H.]

Really yawn

First that:

"....The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. ... "

Then that:

"I'm of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests..."

Sounds like someone's having a mighty bad conscience to me....

With that:

In the letter Churchill clearly remarks that military targets must be studied harder, thus indicating that indeed Dresden was military target.

I fear you have it backwards!

[Torquez]

Nothing about crimes in the letter.

Sounds like someone's having a mighty bad conscience to me....

Can't see.Churchill clearly is concerned that too much destruction of German infrastucture won't be beneficial to postwar world.And that's all there is.

[M.H.]

Pathetic!

"....It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed.
....
The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. ...

Winston Churchill

[M.H.]

I dunno Torqi...maybe all your endless repetition of quotes from Germans about polish "subhumans"...maybe they too are just wrongly interpreted???
I mean they surely didn't meaned it THAT way...

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Torqui can you read English?

"....It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed.

K