Feldgrau.net

Hi Chief,

I would distinguish between Nationalism and Patriotism.

Patriotism is essentially a defensive desire to protect and defend one's country and its values.

By contrast, Nationalism is more offensive in that it wishes to project and impose a nation and its values on others.

I would be quite happy to be thought of as a Patriot, but not at all comfortable to be thought of as a Nationalist.

A world full of nationalst states would be a much bloodier place than a world full of patriotic states.

Cheers,

Sid.

Liam:

One factor that seperated the German Wehrmacht from its opponents during WWII (apart from the Red Army, of course) was the fact that all German troops wore the Nazi party symbol as part of their uniform. It meant that all troops were in some way associated with the party and its ideology. If you combine that with the oath of allegience to Hitler, then yes in a sense all German servicemen were 'nazis'.

You can't compare in that way - the societies were too different. The nazi party symbol was in fact also the official flag of Germany at the time, so this was a symbol of state even if it originated in party politics. EVERYTHING in German life at the time was in some way associated with the party and it's ideology. And they swore allegiance to Hitler as the head of state, not as the leader of a party. Though in a one party state the distinction is of course largely moot. In short, what you are describing is the difference between Germany and the democracies at the time. You could make a case for the Germans as a result being a politicised nation in a way the west was not, but this is something different than German soldiers specifically.

cheers

Hi,

This would be the same thing as saying in the 80's: "Russians = Communists" or "Eastern Europeans = Communists".

This means almost completely wrong, but not 100% percent wrong.
Regards,
Florin

In the 40s, people had far less access to information than now and far fewer sources so many average people were far less "worldly" and obviously did not know the difference between an average German and a "Nazi". If you will read newpaper and magazine articles from during and after the war, the German military is more often than not referred to as "nazis" and even the German nation and people too.

This is a question and not a statement or Belief on my own part.

The Nuremberg and nationwide rallies etc.
The millions of Men and Women giving Hitler Salutes with every few words from him and other speakers.Responding with Sieg Hiels to every few sentences and you see the rapturous smiles on all their faces especially in the retouched Colour films and Stills.

Were these 100% National Socialists?
Or were they at least up until May 45??

Thanx

Hi Kameraden,

The Nuremburg Rally crowds were specially selected because these were party political rallies, not national festivals. I doubt any participants were not card carrying members of various National Socialist organisations. They were not representative of Germany as a whole.

Furthermore, it must be recognised that the dynamics and psychology of crowds can have a profound impact on the individual, even on sceptics. How many of us would not have been affected by the theatrical staging and mass conformity of such rallies?

Cheers,

Sid.

Well said, Sid, pure Shakespeare, Julius Caesar, act II (the crowd). EC

Funny little saying for you guys:

"If all Germans are nazis then all German Jews are Ashkenazis."
(An Ashkenazi is a Central-European Jew. Pronounced Nazzi rather than Notzee)

One factor that seperated the German Wehrmacht from its opponents during WWII (apart from the Red Army, of course) was the fact that all German troops wore the Nazi party symbol as part of their uniform. It meant that all troops were in some way associated with the party and its ideology. If you combine that with the oath of allegience to Hitler, then yes in a sense all German servicemen were 'nazis'.

Personally I wouldn't say that because somebody is forced or persuaded to wear a Nazi symbol and swear an oath to Hitler that makes them a Nazi.
I remember my mother making me say the Lord´s Prayer but it never made me a Christian. The average Wehrmacht soldier had, I'm fairly sure, very little choice in the matter.
You can also be sure that the NSDAP membership was not completely made up of true believers. If Spielbergs film was accurate Schindler was also a member. In any dictatership you'll find people who join 'the Party' whichever it is just for personal advantage.
Hitler certainly believed that German = Nazi but then he also believed alot of other rubbish.
At I slight tangent I've read (please don't ask for a quote, it was a long time ago) that part of the reason for the reluctance of the Wehrmacht officers to resist Hitler, even when it was clear Germany was going to lose the war, was this oath that they had to swear to Hitler.
I can say from experience that not all Germans are right wing (let alone Nazi).

George

No.
German = Nazi is a very general statement and one which does not hold water , bit like saying Russian = Communist.
Obviously a lot were , but remember that the Nazi party got into power by the skin of their teeth , as much by circumstance than anything else .
Would not subscribe to "G=N."

Hi,

The Communists persuated the best intellectuals to enter in the Communist Party. This was done at different levels. The targets were the students with the highest scores at exams, the graduated people skilled in their profession etc.
Of course you could refuse to enter in the ranks of the Party, but the price was a delayed or never granted promotion, much higher dificulty in getting a house repartition etc.
Personnaly, I was never member of the Communist Party, but I was just turned 24 when the dictatorship collapsed, so I may be not a representative case. Of course somebody could become member from 18 (but it was a rare event, before the age of 20), but I did not rushed into that s...t.
By the way... I hated them.

I guess what I wrote above about targeting people for membership and the advantages of being member was the same few decades before in the Nazi Germany.
Regards,
Florin

Hi,

To add something to my previous message, as far as I know and I understand the problem, it seems to me that the Communist regular military forces were much more political controlled than the Wehrmacht.
As far as I know the problem, in the Nazi Germany who wanted a more direct and more political obedient way to serve the system entered in Waffen SS. In the "classical" Wehrmacht the main link was the oath of allegiance towards Hitler.
Someone who did not tasted Communism would say the Communists did not have parallel armies, like Wehrmacht and Waffen SS. Wrong!

I was in the military service in the Romanian Army (who was compulsory for all men without major physical disabilities), so I can claim myself a first hand source. The Romanian Army belonged to the Ministry of Defense, but there were also the units belonging to the Ministry of Interior Affairs. These latter guys may not had Aviation and Navy, but in ground troops they had whole divisions, including armored vehicles and tanks. Their strength increased in time, and at the end of 1989 they were as powerful as the regular army. This may sound strange, but I am talking about people being under arms in peacetime. Nobody has fully mobilization on peacetime.

All officers in the regular army were members of the Communist Party, and I know for sure that not all officers in Wehrmacht were members of the Nazi Party. I was 18 when I started the military service. The only guy in our series (i.e. at my age and in my situation) from the battalion who was member of the Communist Party was made immediately at highest rank between us, immediately in function after officers.
Well, I hope you got the picture. To don't add about the Stalin's comissars who shouted you on your back at the slightest sign of hesitation... And Stalin had whole NKVD and guard armies, who were under the same highest command, but they were a different breed from the common Red Army.

Sincerely,
Florin

My point is that the German army were associated with the Nazis because they wore their party regalia as their national symbol - not that they were 'Nazis'. What i would also like to say is that everyday Nazi party members were unlikely to be evil, criminals or murderers. It's a little noted fact in many Allied accounts of the war that the party helped many ordinary German people, particularly in the aftermath of bombing, etc. The image of the fat, evil Gauleiter is a cliche of WWII as surely as the goose-stepping monocled SS officer screaming "Schweinhundt!" at people. I would think that a lot of Nazi party members were dedicated, serious servants of the people as are many members of democratic political parties today.

ratdog wrote:My 10 yr old asked me the other day "Are all Germans Nazis?" referring to Germans fighting in WWII. Any thoughts?...........Bruce

No. I think Daniel's post said it the best. But there were many of them, and unfortunantly, as my grandfather once told me, "So it goes..."

Doc

Jason Pipes wrote:Most soldiers in the Wehrmacht never joined the NSDAP in fact.

True, but all had to swear alliegence to Hitler didn't they? I think this, as well as the obvious heavy public support (even if some of it was coerced) by many German civilians leads people to generally refer to anyone that supported the "German side" as Nazis.

It's incorrect to say they were, but how far the generalization goes with some may or may not be far off. I'd put it case by case.

Doc