Ron,
Thanks very much for your posts. As I never got as far as the HZA records your information is invaluable. I take it that the issues were to named and or numbered divisions. In which case, how does one correct for different postings of panther detachments to higher formations? For example, I/4 (13PD) which never served with parent division was never shown on 26PD Gliederungen until it was renamed as I/26. It served as independent, under Corps control or even under 26PD from time to time. As you know, there were numerous other examples. Did you have to adjust the list of issues to divisions, to the Panther detachments that happened to be under command at the time.
Thanks again, it's much appreciated.
Roger
Panther Distribution
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Roger Griffiths
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Hi Ron,
I have only 4 returns for 11SSPGD. That division was not one of the better ones for imparting information.
1Jan44 (Rendered as 1 to 31Dec43)
Est/Fit/STR Stugs 31/30/1, PzIII (Bef Pz for Stug Abt) 3/-/-, PzIV 93/-/-, Personnel 95% No doubt Panzer IV should be Panther.
1Feb44
Stugs 31/8/3, Panther 96/-/-, Personnel 94%, SSPzA11 marked as personnel Unit.
1Mch44
Stugs 73/9/1, PzIII 3/-/-, Panther -/3/-, Personnel 75%. Again marked as Personnel Unit. Seems they had 3 Panther in running condition. Please don't ask where establishment of 73 Stugs comes from. Number equates to 4 coys of 17 plus 5 for staff coy recce platoon in a panzer setup.
1Jun44
Stugs 73/10/1, PzIII 3/-/-, PzIV -/1/-, Panther -/5/-, Personnel 73% and as Personnel Unit. Had lots of MG's, a few mortars and flak, so looks as being used as infantry.
Roger
I have only 4 returns for 11SSPGD. That division was not one of the better ones for imparting information.
1Jan44 (Rendered as 1 to 31Dec43)
Est/Fit/STR Stugs 31/30/1, PzIII (Bef Pz for Stug Abt) 3/-/-, PzIV 93/-/-, Personnel 95% No doubt Panzer IV should be Panther.
1Feb44
Stugs 31/8/3, Panther 96/-/-, Personnel 94%, SSPzA11 marked as personnel Unit.
1Mch44
Stugs 73/9/1, PzIII 3/-/-, Panther -/3/-, Personnel 75%. Again marked as Personnel Unit. Seems they had 3 Panther in running condition. Please don't ask where establishment of 73 Stugs comes from. Number equates to 4 coys of 17 plus 5 for staff coy recce platoon in a panzer setup.
1Jun44
Stugs 73/10/1, PzIII 3/-/-, PzIV -/1/-, Panther -/5/-, Personnel 73% and as Personnel Unit. Had lots of MG's, a few mortars and flak, so looks as being used as infantry.
Roger
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Ron Klages
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More Panther Data
Hi Roger,
Regarding the Panther units it is best to stick to the battalion and not the division. I tried to sort that by division and I am sure there are some errors.
I need to get back into the files etc and check out my distribution since it is now aged abit.
Below is some data from Martin Block in Germany that is far more accurate and current. martin is the expert on distribution and I am always on the lookout for his posts.
Panthers that were shipped in January 1945 to
I./SS 10 = 25
I./24 = 50
Panzer depot Mayen = 30 (as reserve for Panzer units on the Western Front)
I./39 = 45
I./26 = 40
I./29 = 2
Pz.Brig. 103 = 2
I./130 = 11
Panthers that were shipped in February 1945 to
25. PGD = 10
Pz.Abt. Stahnsdorf II
I./26 = 5
I./130 = 20
21. PD = 7
2. SS PD = 6
9. SS PD = 9
Führ.Gren.Div. = 16
Führ.Begl.Div. = 30
4. Pz.Div. = 15
16. Pz.Div. = 8
8. Pz.Div. = 15
19. Pz.Div. = 15
best regards and again thank you for the additional data,
Ron
Regarding the Panther units it is best to stick to the battalion and not the division. I tried to sort that by division and I am sure there are some errors.
I need to get back into the files etc and check out my distribution since it is now aged abit.
Below is some data from Martin Block in Germany that is far more accurate and current. martin is the expert on distribution and I am always on the lookout for his posts.
Panthers that were shipped in January 1945 to
I./SS 10 = 25
I./24 = 50
Panzer depot Mayen = 30 (as reserve for Panzer units on the Western Front)
I./39 = 45
I./26 = 40
I./29 = 2
Pz.Brig. 103 = 2
I./130 = 11
Panthers that were shipped in February 1945 to
25. PGD = 10
Pz.Abt. Stahnsdorf II
I./26 = 5
I./130 = 20
21. PD = 7
2. SS PD = 6
9. SS PD = 9
Führ.Gren.Div. = 16
Führ.Begl.Div. = 30
4. Pz.Div. = 15
16. Pz.Div. = 8
8. Pz.Div. = 15
19. Pz.Div. = 15
best regards and again thank you for the additional data,
Ron
Ron Klages
Lynnwood, Washington USA
Lynnwood, Washington USA
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Roger Griffiths
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Panther distribution/2 HG Div
Pardon for butting in on a slight variant of the thread. If I've read the list correctly, 2nd HG Div is mention as receiving 21x Panthers. Having seen a OoB for this division for 1st Jan'45 (in a Bookshop once) I'm assuming that it received these Panthers at a later date as the Oob only mentioned a StuG/PzJag type Battalion. Any clarification?
Cheers
Cheers
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operational strength of 11.SS-PzGrDiv during Feb 1944 see:
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... highlight=
all panthers belong to SS.PzAbt.11
in few days i will enter armor strength of ArmeeGruppe Narwa for end of Feb-Mar 1944. just now i can tell highest operational count was on 25th feb: 14 operational, dropping next day to 5 and on following day to 4.
[all of this taken from same source as above-quoted post]
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... highlight=
all panthers belong to SS.PzAbt.11
in few days i will enter armor strength of ArmeeGruppe Narwa for end of Feb-Mar 1944. just now i can tell highest operational count was on 25th feb: 14 operational, dropping next day to 5 and on following day to 4.
[all of this taken from same source as above-quoted post]
Hi Ron!
Some additional info on Norland's late war Panthers from Tieke's Das Ende zwischen Oder und Elbe:
Heeresgruppe Weichsel report (7 April 1945):
SS-Pz.Abt.11:
Sturmgeschütz III: 24 operational + 2 short-term repair
Panzer V.: 10 operational
Also on pages 141-142, Tieke mentiones an action near Prötzel on 18 April where a lonely null series Panther undergoing repair, destroyed 8 Russian tanks and thus like on the other parts of Nordland's front effectively stopped their advance.
Best
Marko
Some additional info on Norland's late war Panthers from Tieke's Das Ende zwischen Oder und Elbe:
Heeresgruppe Weichsel report (7 April 1945):
SS-Pz.Abt.11:
Sturmgeschütz III: 24 operational + 2 short-term repair
Panzer V.: 10 operational
Also on pages 141-142, Tieke mentiones an action near Prötzel on 18 April where a lonely null series Panther undergoing repair, destroyed 8 Russian tanks and thus like on the other parts of Nordland's front effectively stopped their advance.
Best
Marko
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Ron Klages
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- Location: Lynnwood, Washington
Update
Don and Roger,
The 21 Panthers shown for Panzer-Abt HG which was actually unassigned to a division. Jentz in his book on the Panther shows these being delivered in April 1945 on the Eatern Front. I made an error in showing them aganist HG-2. You are correct only a StuG unit was with HG-2.
I have not been able to find any other reference to these 21 Panthers other than the Jentz book.
Ron
The 21 Panthers shown for Panzer-Abt HG which was actually unassigned to a division. Jentz in his book on the Panther shows these being delivered in April 1945 on the Eatern Front. I made an error in showing them aganist HG-2. You are correct only a StuG unit was with HG-2.
I have not been able to find any other reference to these 21 Panthers other than the Jentz book.
Ron
Ron Klages
Lynnwood, Washington USA
Lynnwood, Washington USA
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Martin Block
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Panther allocations May 1943 - April 1945
Dear Ron,
Once again your numbers caused me to scratch my almost bald head and mumble an extended ''Hmmmm???'' Your Panther delivery list is quite different in many points from what I have researched in recent years, and thus I felt 'forced' to post the following allocation summary for comparision.
The files covering the Panther allocations from May 1943 until April 1945 (Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv Freiburg BA/MA RH 10/349 and 350) show a total of more than 6100 new and factory repaired Panthers shipped to all kinds of units. I spend considerable time comparing these records with divisional and other records from the BA and NARA, and found out that the delivery files are pretty much accurate and reliable with very few exceptions. From those records I compiled the listing below. Hope I didn't forget anything and also didn't include too many typos.
Anyway, the numbers cover only deliveries of new and factory repaired Panthers to a certain unit. Handing over of Panthers between units is NOT covered. That might fill another few pages!
Stab Pz.Rgt. 39 with Pz.Abt. 51 (temporary renamed from II./33) and 51 (temporary renamed from I./15) = 318 [BTW Pz.Rgt. 39 was not renamed I./15!]
I./Pz.Rgt. 1 (1. Pz.Div.) = 256
I./Pz.Rgt. 2 (16. Pz.Div.) = 256
II./Pz.Rgt. 2 = 10 (used as Heerestruppe from fall 1944 onwards)
I./Pz.Rgt. 3 (2. Pz.Div.) = 146
I./Pz.Rgt. 4 = 147 (Heerestruppe, renamed to I./Pz.Rgt. 26/26. Pz.Div. on 16.2.1945)
II./Pz.Rgt. 4 (13. Pz.Div.) = 21 (later renamed to I./Pz.Rgt. FHH 2)
I./Pz.Rgt. 6 (3. Pz.Div.) = 149 (attached to Pz.Lehr-Div. in Summer 1944)
I./Pz.Rgt. 9 (25. Pz.Div.) = 12
I./Pz.Rgt. 10 (8. Pz.Div.) = 52
I./Pz.Rgt. 11 (6. Pz.Div.) = 155
4./Pz.Rgt. 11 = 10 (Apr 1945, did not return to parent division)
I./Pz.Rgt. 15 (11. Pz.Div.) = 218
I./Pz.Rgt. 16 (116. Pz.Div.) = 89
(9 in July 1944 while training in Grafenwöhr, handed over to yet unknown unit a few weeks later
45 new ones in August 1944 while attached to Pz.Brig. 111
35 in 1944/45 while back with parent division)
I./Pz.Rgt. 22 (21. Pz.Div.) = 49
II./Pz.Rgt. 22 (joined Pz.Kgr. XIII/von Hobe) = 22 (+6? probably taken over from I./HG in Oct 1944)
II./Pz.Rgt. 23 (ex II./203) (23. Pz.Div.) = 304
I./Pz.Rgt. 24 = 160 (Heerestruppe, attached to 116. Pz.Div. in summer & fall 1944)
I./Pz.Rgt. 25 (7. Pz.Div.) = 94
I./Pz.Rgt. 26 = 271 (Heerestruppe, renamed to I./Pz.Rgt. BR/Pz.Gren.Div. BR on 18.1.1945 with 60 new Panthers on hand. But the unit joined the Pz.Gren.Div. Kurmark instead.)
I./Pz.Rgt. 27 (19. Pz.Div.) = 108
I./Pz.Rgt. 29 = 72 (Heerestruppe)
(14 in spring of 1944 while training on Panther, 5 of them handed over to yet unknown unit in summer of 1944
36 new ones in August 1944 while attached to Pz.Brig. 112
2 in January 1945 while attached to Stab Pz.Brig. 103
20 in April 1945 while being part of Pz.Div. Müncheberg)
I./Pz.Rgt. 31 (5. Pz.Div.) = 209
II./Pz.Rgt. 33 (9. Pz.Div.) = 198
I./Pz.Rgt. 35 (4. Pz.Div.) = 141
I./Pz.Rgt. 36 (14. Pz.Div.) = 99
I./Pz.Rgt. 39 (17. Pz.Div.) = 46 attached to Stab Pz.Brig. 103 in early 1945 before returning to parent division
I./Pz.Rgt. 130 (Pz.Lehr-Div.) = 146 + 10
(45 in August 1944 while attached to Pz.Brig. 113
60 new ones when sent to Hungary as Heerestruppe
31 in 1945 while back with parent division
10 'Biwa'-Panther to 1./130 which was then sent to join 25. Pz.Gren.Div. in late March 1945. Further details unknown.)
II./Pz.Rgt. 130 (Pz.Lehr-Div.) = 48
I./Pz.Rgt. FHH (1) (Pz.Div. FHH (1)) = 19
I./Pz.Rgt. GD (Pz.Gren.Div. GD) = 123 (until early Dec 1944 attached to 6. Pz.Div.)
I./Pz.Rgt. HG (Pz.Div. HG) = 66 (-6? looks like the first 6 Panthers were handed over to I./22 in Oct 1944)
II./Pz.Rgt. HG = 21 (unit did not return to parent division, but fought the last month of the war attached to 17. SS-Div. in southern Germany)
Führer-Gren.Brig./Div. = 70
Führer-Begl.Div. = 30
Pz.Abt. 5 (25. Pz.Gren.Div.) = 40
Pz.Abt. 2101 (Pz.Brig. 101) = 46
Pz.Abt. 2102 (Pz.Brig. 102) = 36
Pz.Abt. 2103 (Pz.Brig. 103) = 36
Stab Pz.Brig. 103 = 2 (Jan 1945)
Pz.Abt. 2104 (Pz.Brig. 104) = 42
Pz.Abt. 2105 (Pz.Brig. 105) = 36
Pz.Abt. 2106 (Pz.Brig. 106) = 36
1./Pz.Abt. (2)106 (Pz.Div. Clausewitz) = 10 (Note: The Panthers of Pz.Abt. Putlos are included in the numbers delivered to the 'Ersatzheer' below)
Pz.Abt. 2107 (Pz.Brig. 107) = 36
Pz.Abt. 2108 (Pz.Brig. 108) = 36
Pz.Abt. 2109 (Pz.Brig. 109) = 36
Pz.Abt. 2110 (Pz.Brig. 110) = 36
1./Kampf-Abt. 2150 (Pz.Brig. 150) = 5
Pz.Abt. Stahnsdorf II = 19
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 11 (used as command tanks)
Pz.Abt. Oranienbaum = 60 (i.e. 30 each to 9. and 10. Lw.Feld-Div.; old Ausf. D that had initially been issued to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 1)
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 (1. SS-Pz.Div.) = 310 (including those later given to Pz.Abt. Oranienbaum)
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 (2. SS-Pz.Div.) = 220
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 3 (3. SS-Pz.Div.) = 89
II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 5 (5. SS-Pz.Div.) = 88
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 (9. SS-Pz.Div.) = 168
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (10. SS-Pz.Div.) = 70 (looks like the first 10 issued in spring 1944 for training were handed over to unknown unit in summer 1944)
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 12 (12. SS-Pz.Div.) = 132
SS-Training units = 4
Replacements sent to Western Front = 104 (exact units not yet known)
Replacements sent to Eastern Front = 65 (exact units not yet known)
Training units, gunnery schools, Waffenamt etc. = 196 (+ 61 shipped to various testing, evaluation and training units before May 1943 (see Jentz's 'Panther' book))
I cannot however confirm two more units that do appear in your listing, Ron:
4. SS-Pol.PzGren.Div./SS-Pz.Abt. 4 = 20 ????
11. SS-Pz.Gren.Div./SS-Pz.Abt. 11 = 10 ????
There is no trace whatsoever of any deliveries of Panthers to SS-Pz.Abt. 4, nor is there any evidence of Panthers appearing in their monthly strenght reports! Were did you find this information Ron?
There is also not a clue about any direct Panther shipments to SS-Pz.Abt. 11 in Feb 1945. They did pick up about 15 Ausf. D 'runners' from 9. and 10. Lw.Feld-Div. in early 1944, that's all! This was confirmed to me in a letter from the late Abteilungskommandeur P.-A. Kausch as well as from the few available strenght reports of 11. SS-Div.
Checked original H.Gr. Weichsel reports dated 15.2.45, 27.3.45, 6.4.45, 7.4.45, 10.4.45, and 16.4.1945. ALL show only the 2 (two) old Ausf. D Panthers which the Abteilung managed to bring along, and from 7.4.1945 on 11. SS-Div. also started to report 10 fresh delivered Pz IV/70(V). IMHO the often mentioned Herr Tieke made some transcription errors when quoting the 7.4.45 report!
Ron, I hope you do understand that this is by no means a personal attack on your work. But since you also quote the delivery records, I was more than a little surprised to see the difference between many of our numbers. Could of course also mean my interpretation of the records is wrong. Nobody is perfect they say, but damn, I was beginning to think I wasn't that far away from it
Martin Block
P.S.: Note to Roger - You're right about II./Pz.Rgt. 21 (20. Pz.Div.). They received the remaining Panthers from Pz.Brig. 101 and 103, about 50 in total.
Once again your numbers caused me to scratch my almost bald head and mumble an extended ''Hmmmm???'' Your Panther delivery list is quite different in many points from what I have researched in recent years, and thus I felt 'forced' to post the following allocation summary for comparision.
The files covering the Panther allocations from May 1943 until April 1945 (Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv Freiburg BA/MA RH 10/349 and 350) show a total of more than 6100 new and factory repaired Panthers shipped to all kinds of units. I spend considerable time comparing these records with divisional and other records from the BA and NARA, and found out that the delivery files are pretty much accurate and reliable with very few exceptions. From those records I compiled the listing below. Hope I didn't forget anything and also didn't include too many typos.
Anyway, the numbers cover only deliveries of new and factory repaired Panthers to a certain unit. Handing over of Panthers between units is NOT covered. That might fill another few pages!
Stab Pz.Rgt. 39 with Pz.Abt. 51 (temporary renamed from II./33) and 51 (temporary renamed from I./15) = 318 [BTW Pz.Rgt. 39 was not renamed I./15!]
I./Pz.Rgt. 1 (1. Pz.Div.) = 256
I./Pz.Rgt. 2 (16. Pz.Div.) = 256
II./Pz.Rgt. 2 = 10 (used as Heerestruppe from fall 1944 onwards)
I./Pz.Rgt. 3 (2. Pz.Div.) = 146
I./Pz.Rgt. 4 = 147 (Heerestruppe, renamed to I./Pz.Rgt. 26/26. Pz.Div. on 16.2.1945)
II./Pz.Rgt. 4 (13. Pz.Div.) = 21 (later renamed to I./Pz.Rgt. FHH 2)
I./Pz.Rgt. 6 (3. Pz.Div.) = 149 (attached to Pz.Lehr-Div. in Summer 1944)
I./Pz.Rgt. 9 (25. Pz.Div.) = 12
I./Pz.Rgt. 10 (8. Pz.Div.) = 52
I./Pz.Rgt. 11 (6. Pz.Div.) = 155
4./Pz.Rgt. 11 = 10 (Apr 1945, did not return to parent division)
I./Pz.Rgt. 15 (11. Pz.Div.) = 218
I./Pz.Rgt. 16 (116. Pz.Div.) = 89
(9 in July 1944 while training in Grafenwöhr, handed over to yet unknown unit a few weeks later
45 new ones in August 1944 while attached to Pz.Brig. 111
35 in 1944/45 while back with parent division)
I./Pz.Rgt. 22 (21. Pz.Div.) = 49
II./Pz.Rgt. 22 (joined Pz.Kgr. XIII/von Hobe) = 22 (+6? probably taken over from I./HG in Oct 1944)
II./Pz.Rgt. 23 (ex II./203) (23. Pz.Div.) = 304
I./Pz.Rgt. 24 = 160 (Heerestruppe, attached to 116. Pz.Div. in summer & fall 1944)
I./Pz.Rgt. 25 (7. Pz.Div.) = 94
I./Pz.Rgt. 26 = 271 (Heerestruppe, renamed to I./Pz.Rgt. BR/Pz.Gren.Div. BR on 18.1.1945 with 60 new Panthers on hand. But the unit joined the Pz.Gren.Div. Kurmark instead.)
I./Pz.Rgt. 27 (19. Pz.Div.) = 108
I./Pz.Rgt. 29 = 72 (Heerestruppe)
(14 in spring of 1944 while training on Panther, 5 of them handed over to yet unknown unit in summer of 1944
36 new ones in August 1944 while attached to Pz.Brig. 112
2 in January 1945 while attached to Stab Pz.Brig. 103
20 in April 1945 while being part of Pz.Div. Müncheberg)
I./Pz.Rgt. 31 (5. Pz.Div.) = 209
II./Pz.Rgt. 33 (9. Pz.Div.) = 198
I./Pz.Rgt. 35 (4. Pz.Div.) = 141
I./Pz.Rgt. 36 (14. Pz.Div.) = 99
I./Pz.Rgt. 39 (17. Pz.Div.) = 46 attached to Stab Pz.Brig. 103 in early 1945 before returning to parent division
I./Pz.Rgt. 130 (Pz.Lehr-Div.) = 146 + 10
(45 in August 1944 while attached to Pz.Brig. 113
60 new ones when sent to Hungary as Heerestruppe
31 in 1945 while back with parent division
10 'Biwa'-Panther to 1./130 which was then sent to join 25. Pz.Gren.Div. in late March 1945. Further details unknown.)
II./Pz.Rgt. 130 (Pz.Lehr-Div.) = 48
I./Pz.Rgt. FHH (1) (Pz.Div. FHH (1)) = 19
I./Pz.Rgt. GD (Pz.Gren.Div. GD) = 123 (until early Dec 1944 attached to 6. Pz.Div.)
I./Pz.Rgt. HG (Pz.Div. HG) = 66 (-6? looks like the first 6 Panthers were handed over to I./22 in Oct 1944)
II./Pz.Rgt. HG = 21 (unit did not return to parent division, but fought the last month of the war attached to 17. SS-Div. in southern Germany)
Führer-Gren.Brig./Div. = 70
Führer-Begl.Div. = 30
Pz.Abt. 5 (25. Pz.Gren.Div.) = 40
Pz.Abt. 2101 (Pz.Brig. 101) = 46
Pz.Abt. 2102 (Pz.Brig. 102) = 36
Pz.Abt. 2103 (Pz.Brig. 103) = 36
Stab Pz.Brig. 103 = 2 (Jan 1945)
Pz.Abt. 2104 (Pz.Brig. 104) = 42
Pz.Abt. 2105 (Pz.Brig. 105) = 36
Pz.Abt. 2106 (Pz.Brig. 106) = 36
1./Pz.Abt. (2)106 (Pz.Div. Clausewitz) = 10 (Note: The Panthers of Pz.Abt. Putlos are included in the numbers delivered to the 'Ersatzheer' below)
Pz.Abt. 2107 (Pz.Brig. 107) = 36
Pz.Abt. 2108 (Pz.Brig. 108) = 36
Pz.Abt. 2109 (Pz.Brig. 109) = 36
Pz.Abt. 2110 (Pz.Brig. 110) = 36
1./Kampf-Abt. 2150 (Pz.Brig. 150) = 5
Pz.Abt. Stahnsdorf II = 19
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 11 (used as command tanks)
Pz.Abt. Oranienbaum = 60 (i.e. 30 each to 9. and 10. Lw.Feld-Div.; old Ausf. D that had initially been issued to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 1)
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 (1. SS-Pz.Div.) = 310 (including those later given to Pz.Abt. Oranienbaum)
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 (2. SS-Pz.Div.) = 220
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 3 (3. SS-Pz.Div.) = 89
II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 5 (5. SS-Pz.Div.) = 88
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 (9. SS-Pz.Div.) = 168
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (10. SS-Pz.Div.) = 70 (looks like the first 10 issued in spring 1944 for training were handed over to unknown unit in summer 1944)
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 12 (12. SS-Pz.Div.) = 132
SS-Training units = 4
Replacements sent to Western Front = 104 (exact units not yet known)
Replacements sent to Eastern Front = 65 (exact units not yet known)
Training units, gunnery schools, Waffenamt etc. = 196 (+ 61 shipped to various testing, evaluation and training units before May 1943 (see Jentz's 'Panther' book))
I cannot however confirm two more units that do appear in your listing, Ron:
4. SS-Pol.PzGren.Div./SS-Pz.Abt. 4 = 20 ????
11. SS-Pz.Gren.Div./SS-Pz.Abt. 11 = 10 ????
There is no trace whatsoever of any deliveries of Panthers to SS-Pz.Abt. 4, nor is there any evidence of Panthers appearing in their monthly strenght reports! Were did you find this information Ron?
There is also not a clue about any direct Panther shipments to SS-Pz.Abt. 11 in Feb 1945. They did pick up about 15 Ausf. D 'runners' from 9. and 10. Lw.Feld-Div. in early 1944, that's all! This was confirmed to me in a letter from the late Abteilungskommandeur P.-A. Kausch as well as from the few available strenght reports of 11. SS-Div.
Checked original H.Gr. Weichsel reports dated 15.2.45, 27.3.45, 6.4.45, 7.4.45, 10.4.45, and 16.4.1945. ALL show only the 2 (two) old Ausf. D Panthers which the Abteilung managed to bring along, and from 7.4.1945 on 11. SS-Div. also started to report 10 fresh delivered Pz IV/70(V). IMHO the often mentioned Herr Tieke made some transcription errors when quoting the 7.4.45 report!
Ron, I hope you do understand that this is by no means a personal attack on your work. But since you also quote the delivery records, I was more than a little surprised to see the difference between many of our numbers. Could of course also mean my interpretation of the records is wrong. Nobody is perfect they say, but damn, I was beginning to think I wasn't that far away from it
Martin Block
P.S.: Note to Roger - You're right about II./Pz.Rgt. 21 (20. Pz.Div.). They received the remaining Panthers from Pz.Brig. 101 and 103, about 50 in total.
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Jan-Hendrik
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Re: Panther Distribution
Dear Martin
Thank you for your excellent info. as always. I am trying to prepare a breakdown showing monthly delivery of panthers by individual units. I think that the total no. of panthers received by units as stated in your previous post in feldgrau forum here (thereafter known as 'F') is complied using the table as shown in your web site below (thereafter known as 'T'):
http://www.panther1944.de/Panther/panth ... n1943.html
I found that the figures shown on T is nearly 99% agree with F except for the following which I hope you can kindly explain for me:
1) I./ Pz.Rgt. 15
T showed 11 (Oct.43), 30 (44. Jan), 19 (feb), 6 (Mar), 8 (Jul), 10 (Oct), 67 (Dec) together with 79 taken over from I./Pz.Rgt. 27 in June or July 44 made up 230 which exceed the figure in F that stated 218.
2) I./Pz.Rgt. 27
T showed 32 (44. Jun.), 39 (Jul), 8 (Aug.), 15 (45.Feb) totally 94 and do not agreed with the sum of 108 in F.
3) I./SS Pz.Rgt. 3
T cited 4 (44.jan), 6 (Mar.), 5 (jun), 76 (July) totally 91 which is different with the data in F showing 89.
However, by adding the difference of 2 in 3) above and 12 in 1) above, it prefectly matched the shortfall of 14 in 2) above. So is there any co-relation there?
4) According to T the II./Pz.Rgt. 33 received 11 panthers in Oct. 43, but this figure was not included in the total no. of receipts of 198 stated in F. So where are these 11 panther accounted for?
Lastly, in F you mentioned about the handling over of panthers bet. units. Is there any chance for publishing it in your coming book? I already own most of the books with articles contributed by you. What is the progress for your new book as you mentioned by you previously?
Thank you for your help.
Thank you for your excellent info. as always. I am trying to prepare a breakdown showing monthly delivery of panthers by individual units. I think that the total no. of panthers received by units as stated in your previous post in feldgrau forum here (thereafter known as 'F') is complied using the table as shown in your web site below (thereafter known as 'T'):
http://www.panther1944.de/Panther/panth ... n1943.html
I found that the figures shown on T is nearly 99% agree with F except for the following which I hope you can kindly explain for me:
1) I./ Pz.Rgt. 15
T showed 11 (Oct.43), 30 (44. Jan), 19 (feb), 6 (Mar), 8 (Jul), 10 (Oct), 67 (Dec) together with 79 taken over from I./Pz.Rgt. 27 in June or July 44 made up 230 which exceed the figure in F that stated 218.
2) I./Pz.Rgt. 27
T showed 32 (44. Jun.), 39 (Jul), 8 (Aug.), 15 (45.Feb) totally 94 and do not agreed with the sum of 108 in F.
3) I./SS Pz.Rgt. 3
T cited 4 (44.jan), 6 (Mar.), 5 (jun), 76 (July) totally 91 which is different with the data in F showing 89.
However, by adding the difference of 2 in 3) above and 12 in 1) above, it prefectly matched the shortfall of 14 in 2) above. So is there any co-relation there?
4) According to T the II./Pz.Rgt. 33 received 11 panthers in Oct. 43, but this figure was not included in the total no. of receipts of 198 stated in F. So where are these 11 panther accounted for?
Lastly, in F you mentioned about the handling over of panthers bet. units. Is there any chance for publishing it in your coming book? I already own most of the books with articles contributed by you. What is the progress for your new book as you mentioned by you previously?
Thank you for your help.
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Martin Block
- Enthusiast
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:09 am
Re: Panther Distribution
HenryLee,
Thank you for your kind words. The difference between the figures in 'F' and 'T' is explained very simple: 'F' is 5 years older than 'T'!
New documents have surfaced, new information came in, a few errors/misinterpretations/typos have been eradicated etc. - no one is error-free, not even me
'T' is the up-to-date list, so don't waste any more time on 'F'. I certainly won't - and can't since my files are continuously updated and I don't keep any of the outdated info.
In another 5 years from now 'T' may also have see a few changes since there still are a few unsolved puzzles left which hopefully will be solved one day. The quest continues!
'T' does only cover the allocation and shipment of new and factory repaired Panthers to units. Any taking over of Panthers between units will be dealt with in the unit history section on the Panther1944.de website http://www.panther1944.de/Panther/panthereinheiten.htm Finding data about handing over of tanks between units turned out to be much more difficult than about allocations. There is still a lot of work to do!
The unit histories are currently available in German language only (already online are I./25, II./22, I./4, II./HG and a few others) but who knows, when I'm old and grey I might have time to translate them into English language one day.
Won't comment much on any book projects. Unfortunately things turned out to be more difficult and progress much slower than expected.
BTW Panther1944.de is not owned by me but run by my pal Edi Eberl, I'm just making a few small contributions
Martin Block
Thank you for your kind words. The difference between the figures in 'F' and 'T' is explained very simple: 'F' is 5 years older than 'T'!
New documents have surfaced, new information came in, a few errors/misinterpretations/typos have been eradicated etc. - no one is error-free, not even me
'T' is the up-to-date list, so don't waste any more time on 'F'. I certainly won't - and can't since my files are continuously updated and I don't keep any of the outdated info.
In another 5 years from now 'T' may also have see a few changes since there still are a few unsolved puzzles left which hopefully will be solved one day. The quest continues!
'T' does only cover the allocation and shipment of new and factory repaired Panthers to units. Any taking over of Panthers between units will be dealt with in the unit history section on the Panther1944.de website http://www.panther1944.de/Panther/panthereinheiten.htm Finding data about handing over of tanks between units turned out to be much more difficult than about allocations. There is still a lot of work to do!
The unit histories are currently available in German language only (already online are I./25, II./22, I./4, II./HG and a few others) but who knows, when I'm old and grey I might have time to translate them into English language one day.
Won't comment much on any book projects. Unfortunately things turned out to be more difficult and progress much slower than expected.
BTW Panther1944.de is not owned by me but run by my pal Edi Eberl, I'm just making a few small contributions
Martin Block
-
Grenader Henrik
- New Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:32 pm
- Location: Österreich
Re: Panther Distribution
Deeply sorry about bumping into an old tread, but after having read Roger Griffiths post #17, it appears to me that his lists, dated 1 Mars and 1 June, shows a ridiculous amount of Stu.G. III. If anyone would care to elaborate, it would be very much appreciated.
Sincerely, Henrik D.
Sincerely, Henrik D.