Glad to see this thread is still going! I have been reading an updated edition(2002) of The IRA by coogan and some points are slightly unclear.
1. Did the abwehr actually provide arms and explosives because I do recall in my reading that one attack was carried out by a group armed with MP-40's, were they given or possibly stolen (unlikly but still a possiblity as the brits did have soldiers dressed up in german uniforms and having captured german gear for Identifcation purposes and so US and Brit troops to know what the weapons look like and their capabilties) or was anything at all given?
2. Did the magazine fort raid actually succeed?
3. Was any really important contact made at all with high ranking members such as the army council?
-Mike
IRA and Germany in WW2
Moderator: George Lepre
-
darkertomcat
- Supporter
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 2:51 pm
- Location: Virginia, USA
I found this about O'Duffy's Blue Shirts. It mostly has to do with the Spanish Civil War but there is some interesting stuff about WW 2 as well.
http://www.geocities.com/irishnatio...ofthecross.html
Under the banner of the Cross; Irish volunteers fighting for Franco
http://www.geocities.com/irishnatio...ofthecross.html
Under the banner of the Cross; Irish volunteers fighting for Franco
Ex - I.R.A. man Frank Ryan led the Irish in the International Brigade, he was opposed by the then I.R.A. Chief of Staff Tom Barry. Barry was a hero of the Irish War of Independence, who was against sending I.R.A. members to aid the Spanish Republic and any members who wanted to aid the Communist had to resign from the I.R.A. Barry later showed support for Germany and Ryan was later to travel to Ireland a German U - Boat with the then Chief of Staff Sean Russell who sadly died en - route. A former British Army Officer and member of the International Brigade was the Jewish Captain Nathan who as a member of the murderous Black and Tans, the most hated force of British Military presence in Ireland and personally responsible for the murder of two prominent Limerick Sinn Feiners in 1920. He did not deny his misdemeanours during the 'Tan War'. He volunteered for Spain as a Jew but also because he said Fascism was the common enemy of mankind Jew or Gentile. Obviously he didn?t care if the Catholics he killed were Irish or Spanish.
-
darkertomcat
- Supporter
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 2:51 pm
- Location: Virginia, USA
Sorry,darkertomcat wrote:Ferret could you resend that link, its not working and I would be quite interested in reading it.
-Mike
Try this again
http://www.geocities.com/irishnationali ... cross.html
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
-
SS-Oberscharführer Rudel
- Supporter
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:51 am
- Location: Singapur
- Contact:
-
John Kilmartin
- Contributor
- Posts: 297
- Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:50 pm
- Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
The Gun in politics
Hi Sid,
Once the gun was introduced into politics by the Unionists prior to the Home Rule Bill passing and the lack of any sort of reasonable response to the Curragh Mutiny, it gave birth to a generation that beleived change would occur only through the 'deed'. It may not seem reasonable to you or I but those young Irishmen who went to Spain truly beleived that change only came through bloodshed.
I don't think that those who enlisted in the Blueshirts were so much Fascist as ultra montane Catholics. As I understand it they went to defend the Church in Spain not understanding it to be the major landholder it was. Those on the other side were more in line with socialism and democracy than Trotsky and Stalin. One has to remember that the Irish had come out of a civil war over a treaty interpretation.
Once the gun was introduced into politics by the Unionists prior to the Home Rule Bill passing and the lack of any sort of reasonable response to the Curragh Mutiny, it gave birth to a generation that beleived change would occur only through the 'deed'. It may not seem reasonable to you or I but those young Irishmen who went to Spain truly beleived that change only came through bloodshed.
I don't think that those who enlisted in the Blueshirts were so much Fascist as ultra montane Catholics. As I understand it they went to defend the Church in Spain not understanding it to be the major landholder it was. Those on the other side were more in line with socialism and democracy than Trotsky and Stalin. One has to remember that the Irish had come out of a civil war over a treaty interpretation.
' Strip war of the mantle of its glories and excitement, and it will disclose a gibbering ghost of pain , grief, dissappointment and despair'
-
phylo_roadking
- Patron
- Posts: 8459
- Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm
Hi, coming very late to this, but theres some stuff i need to correct, i hope for the gentlman who was doing the literary research this doesnt come too late.....
There WERE links with the Gestapo and the IRA....just not the IRA in the Irish Republic. The border was nearly watertight thru the war years, and the Ulster command of the IRA were very nearly independent. They had contact somehow with the Gestapo, because weapons explosives and money reached the UK mainland via Ulster, into the hands of Welsh nationalist who carried out some VERY limited sabotage on the mainland with them.
Yes, in the Irish Republic the matter of contuing contact with the IRA was the province of the Abwehr..... but it did NOT stop because Hermann Goertz said they were unreliable. What DID stop was any further work by the Garmans on Plan Kathleen, a plan for an invasion of Ireland that the IRA had drawn up. He passed back an unfavourable report only on the grounds that the IRA IN THE REPUBLIC was badly split, and had no way of training the volunteers required in any practicable timescale.
The WHY the Abwehr efforts stopped was very simple; like all Nazi activities, several branches were working towards the same ends; in THIS case Ribbentrop prevailed on Hitler to direct that the Wilhelmshafen office of the Abwehr stop their activities in Ireland. And he was assisted by the notable and repeated failures of the Abwehr in maintaining regular contact with the IRA and the repeated capture of its agents. Hitler himself was actually against fomenting rebellion in Ireland and stated so in at least TWO speeches! He held up Ireland as the perfect example of a young nation exercising its rights to independence! Double standards or what!!!!
As to Frank Ryan poisoning Sean Russell.....well, apart from Russell having spent about 18 months in hospital in German in three years, and living on a diet of lettuce....and the fact that they were good friends before the war....though it was actually Russells growing extremeism and formation of the 1939 "S" bombing plan in the UK that had driven Ryan into the Socialist political camp.....
why did they not land Ryan? Um, pretty damned simple - Ryan was a German PRISONER! He'd been held in prison by Franco after the Spanish Civil War with a sentence of death hanging over him, as it was for all International Brigade volunteers. The Germans learned he was a prisoner and wanting to foster their links with the IRA they REQUESTED he be transferred to Germany, and he was. He like Russell languished in Berlin while they worked out for years exactly what to do with them, but once the Plan Kathleen fiasco was over they decided to send them back to Ireland to try to maintain links with the IRA, they were having terrible problems getting safe radio transmitters to the IRA. Ryan later recorded that he didnt even know Russell was in Berlin till they met in the last few days of preparation for departure. Techinically speaking, Ryan was in Russell's custody!!!
phylo
There WERE links with the Gestapo and the IRA....just not the IRA in the Irish Republic. The border was nearly watertight thru the war years, and the Ulster command of the IRA were very nearly independent. They had contact somehow with the Gestapo, because weapons explosives and money reached the UK mainland via Ulster, into the hands of Welsh nationalist who carried out some VERY limited sabotage on the mainland with them.
Yes, in the Irish Republic the matter of contuing contact with the IRA was the province of the Abwehr..... but it did NOT stop because Hermann Goertz said they were unreliable. What DID stop was any further work by the Garmans on Plan Kathleen, a plan for an invasion of Ireland that the IRA had drawn up. He passed back an unfavourable report only on the grounds that the IRA IN THE REPUBLIC was badly split, and had no way of training the volunteers required in any practicable timescale.
The WHY the Abwehr efforts stopped was very simple; like all Nazi activities, several branches were working towards the same ends; in THIS case Ribbentrop prevailed on Hitler to direct that the Wilhelmshafen office of the Abwehr stop their activities in Ireland. And he was assisted by the notable and repeated failures of the Abwehr in maintaining regular contact with the IRA and the repeated capture of its agents. Hitler himself was actually against fomenting rebellion in Ireland and stated so in at least TWO speeches! He held up Ireland as the perfect example of a young nation exercising its rights to independence! Double standards or what!!!!
As to Frank Ryan poisoning Sean Russell.....well, apart from Russell having spent about 18 months in hospital in German in three years, and living on a diet of lettuce....and the fact that they were good friends before the war....though it was actually Russells growing extremeism and formation of the 1939 "S" bombing plan in the UK that had driven Ryan into the Socialist political camp.....
why did they not land Ryan? Um, pretty damned simple - Ryan was a German PRISONER! He'd been held in prison by Franco after the Spanish Civil War with a sentence of death hanging over him, as it was for all International Brigade volunteers. The Germans learned he was a prisoner and wanting to foster their links with the IRA they REQUESTED he be transferred to Germany, and he was. He like Russell languished in Berlin while they worked out for years exactly what to do with them, but once the Plan Kathleen fiasco was over they decided to send them back to Ireland to try to maintain links with the IRA, they were having terrible problems getting safe radio transmitters to the IRA. Ryan later recorded that he didnt even know Russell was in Berlin till they met in the last few days of preparation for departure. Techinically speaking, Ryan was in Russell's custody!!!
phylo
germany and ireland
what would you like to know
key names here are stephen hayes leader off the ira and free state informer who sent men to england to do the bombing but they started the campaign months too early , this is celebrated in a song me auld alarm clock .
ryan was a dick a socialist that was at odds with the ira leadership which to the contrary was not socialist they like the blue shirts under commandant owen o duffy from the northern division were ardent catholics .
russell sought german aid but the germans became disillusioned as the ira was fragmented too much ,
key names here are stephen hayes leader off the ira and free state informer who sent men to england to do the bombing but they started the campaign months too early , this is celebrated in a song me auld alarm clock .
ryan was a dick a socialist that was at odds with the ira leadership which to the contrary was not socialist they like the blue shirts under commandant owen o duffy from the northern division were ardent catholics .
russell sought german aid but the germans became disillusioned as the ira was fragmented too much ,
SS-KAMPFGRUPPE KNITTEL
the easter lilly
read the book the easter lilly , x ira volunteer turned free state officer he talks about german spies in ireland and the ira link s .
im not able to comment personally in regards to ira / german links for ww2 as relatives off those who knew what was going on are still alive and it would be a betrayal off trust . alot off those that wrote books didnt know the people involved only knew them on paper .
the general assertion was "that my enemies enemy is my friend " thats why ira were initially interested in german help , although tens of thousands off irish fought for britain , it would be unfair to say that the irish people even in the ira were anti british as a lot off them signed up and fought for britain , the only goal that interested the ira was the withdrawal off british troops from the north , thats solely the crux off the matter , anything else is a red herring , socialism / communism was not really anissue in catholic dominated ireland like in other countries as the church and state held tight reins over the people ..
ryan , russell , hayes although they held positions in the ira leadership at one stage were largely only figure heads , the ira was run from the north were the patriots were engaged in a campaign .
im not able to comment personally in regards to ira / german links for ww2 as relatives off those who knew what was going on are still alive and it would be a betrayal off trust . alot off those that wrote books didnt know the people involved only knew them on paper .
the general assertion was "that my enemies enemy is my friend " thats why ira were initially interested in german help , although tens of thousands off irish fought for britain , it would be unfair to say that the irish people even in the ira were anti british as a lot off them signed up and fought for britain , the only goal that interested the ira was the withdrawal off british troops from the north , thats solely the crux off the matter , anything else is a red herring , socialism / communism was not really anissue in catholic dominated ireland like in other countries as the church and state held tight reins over the people ..
ryan , russell , hayes although they held positions in the ira leadership at one stage were largely only figure heads , the ira was run from the north were the patriots were engaged in a campaign .
SS-KAMPFGRUPPE KNITTEL
-
panzermahn
- Associate
- Posts: 919
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:09 am
- Location: Malaysia
If memory serves me correct, the Abwehr planned to use some IRA men for intelligence operations in Great Britain during the beginning of the war. But the Brits had one of the best counterintelligence units in the world in the form of MI5 therefore any plans by Canaris on using IRA men came to nothing.
Panzermahn
Panzermahn
ACTUALLY INCORRECT
hi sorry your actually incorrect , all intelligence at the highest level was supplied by the irish authorities to the british about the impending bombing and campaign , as steven hayes the commander of the ira was an informer from 1936/37 and he sent the guys across to commence the campaign .he supplied info on their activities to the irish intelligence services ,
hayes was later arrested by the northern command and interrogated and found out to be an informer which they had suspected for a long time off sabotaging ira activity in england by (x) and (Y) and (z) and condemned to death but escaped the fate which befitts a judas ,
records may identify these other people but you would have to look for them yourself in released documents by the state
hayes was later arrested by the northern command and interrogated and found out to be an informer which they had suspected for a long time off sabotaging ira activity in england by (x) and (Y) and (z) and condemned to death but escaped the fate which befitts a judas ,
records may identify these other people but you would have to look for them yourself in released documents by the state
SS-KAMPFGRUPPE KNITTEL
-
phylo_roadking
- Patron
- Posts: 8459
- Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm
Joolz, the IRA's Marxist-Leninist stance only appeared from the mid 1960s on as the old Officials moved slowly away from armed insurgency. Shergar is right in that; the socialist/communist element had no place in Ireland at THAT time - except in the years immediately preceeding the war, and only as an opposite to the fascit Blueshirts. It had no relevance anywhere else in Ireland at that time.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds