So, why does no one love the 8th Panzer?

[Jan-Hendrik]

Balck ....

For Balck and Tarnopol see :

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=2174

Jan-Hendrik

[cpa95]

Balck ....
For Balck and Tarnopol see :
Jan-Hendrik

Hi Com.D and Jan-Hendrik,

first, i didnt want to provoke.

I am interested in the facts, and the discussions in the past brought a lot of them "in the case of" Balck.
I think, to compare the statements with those to the events of Tarnopol of by HuD, doesnt clear the situation of 8th PD. Are there other sources to refuse his statements? Com. of the division was Generalmajor Gottfried Frölich. Does anyone have informations about him?

Greetings
Thomas

[Reb]

Re 8th Pz

Got some very bad press from von Mellinthin in Panzer Battles re the '44 campaign. Bad conduct by (and CO exposed div to air attack and much else as I recall and von Mellinthin took over command temporarily. Fired a regimental CO as well IIRC. Mellinthin actuall referred to it at one point as "that disobedient division."

I submit that this in no way shows 8 Pz to be a "bad division." These sort of units were so heavily engaged for so long on the Ost Front that we should almost tag them as "x pz div + date" since the 8 pz of '44 was almost totally different than the 8 pz div of '41.

Plus - the actions of a bad officer or two should not be used to condemn a whole div.

cheers
Reb

[panzerschreck1]

Commisar the 8th panzer did not achieved much during the Brody campaign , they were supposed to relieve the XIII AK during the first stages of invelopment(surrounding) the CO of the division against all orders chose a different route which XIII AK strictly forbade to choose, a route that followed the main road to Sasiv-Zolochiv the 8th panzers colums got immensly strafed by the soviets 2nd air army that previously attacked the 349th ID and 14th ss....

The 1st panzer did achieve their designated goals but because of 9th panzers failure were forced to retreat

see the superb account by Melnik on AHF (auther of Galizien book)

[tigre]

Hello folks, could anyone here tell me something about the tank raid carried out by the 8 Pz Div from the Memel river shore to the Duna river bank and the capture of Dunaburg bridge?. Quite an accomplishment eh. TIA. Regards. Tigre.

[tigre]

Hello to all. Any story about that panzer raid? no one?. Commissar D, pull me out of the dark, please . TIA. Regards. Tigre.

[cpa95]

Hi tigre

22.6.1941:
Kampfgruppe A (Obstlt. Crisolli) SR 8, KradschBat. 8, II./PR 10, 1./PzPioBat 59,
was ordered to take the bridges across the Mituwa on 22.6.1941. At 4.45 am the top of KGr. A met one T 26 tank near the wood of Susmuk. It was destroyed by some hits. The 2./PR 10 arrived in Jurbarkas at 5.40 am and took both bridges. At 6.50 am the KGr. A was ordered to move forwards to the bridges across the Dubyssa. Meanwhile the SR 8 secured Jurbarkas.

The left wing, Kampfgruppe B (Oberst Scheller), SR 28, I./PR 10, AA 8, 2./PzPioBat 59, IR 503 (from 290. ID) crossed the border near Antschwenten. The bad roads on the left wing brought many difficulties for any movements. Heavy vehicles could not cross the little river near the border, a BauPioBat from the LVI. corps built a bridge, which was ready in the late afternoon. The KGr. B moved forward at got order at 5.oo pm, to make a turn in the Jurbarkas direction, caused by the difficulties of bad roads. KGr. B should follow the A during the next day.

23.6.1941
At 11,00 am the A reached Elecnorova and met an active enemy first time. The russian troops retreated, so A was able to secure a passage through the Mituva near Luksiai. At once begun the building of a 16 to-bridge, and afternoon the first tanks of II./PR 10 crossed the Mituva. It was reproted, that russian troops defended a bunker line near Girdziai. KradschBat. 8 attatecked since 8.55 am in the Seredzius direction, to cross the Dubyssa at that place and built a bridgehead. The commander of Panzergruppe 4, Hoepner, arrived at the headquarter of the 8th Panzerdivision at 11.30 am. Meanwhile in the afternoon the KradschBat 8 reached Seredzius, the Dubyssa bridge was taken at 01.00 pm (05.00 ???). At the same time the II./PR 10 broke through the bunker line. near Girdziai and marched forward in the Ariogala direction. Manstein arrived at the division headquarter in the afternoon and ordered to built a bridgehead in Ariogala. The hills behind Ariogala were defended by russian troops.

Thomas

[tigre]

It's seems I've found what I'm looking for; thank you Thomas. Cheers and have a nice Sunday. Tigre.

[tigre]

Hello Thomas, sorry for asking but...., could you add more info about the subject (two or three days, up to 26 Jun 1941?). TIA. Cheers. Tigre.

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Tigre, Haupt seems to devote a few pages to this action in his book, “Die 8th Panzer Division” by Werner Haupt., 1987, 416 pages, including photos and maps, which, incidently, I'm selling..............

Best,
David

[nathalie]

Hi,

Just my feeling about the importance of the 8 Pz D. I don't know much about the history of it but my uncle served in this division and is MIA since 15/02/1945 near Oberstreit/Striegau. So for me and for my father and aunt, it is an important division and the more information I can get about it, the more I could find out about his life in this horrible war.

So if anybody has some pics or informations, I'm interested.

regards,

Nathalie

[Jan-Hendrik]

By the way , has anybody details about the 8th Panzer in Autumn 1941 , at the Wolchiw or during the nonsensical rush to Tichwin ?



Jan-Hendrik

[Polynike]

Admittedly, most of the Panzer Divisions covered are SS. The problem is, the Eastern Front just is not as interesting to Americans it seems. Of course, I think that certain people don't understand that very few people actually care about a particular unit (excluding the SS groupies and our members which have an intereset in specific foregin volunteers or etc.) as they do the battles themselves. In most cases, people are more interested the more serious they become with historical studies. Who would care about the 178. Infanterie Division if it was on rear guard duties for the whole war even if it had a special Mauser only issued to them? Mauser collectors would, but noone else.

At least that is how I see it.

TS Allen

a statement that i think rings true. ironically the war was won on the eastern front but i suppose its understandable that the US historians focus on their own fight in the west. in europe we take a more wholistic approach to the study of the war, west and east. makes for a more interesting read and a more varied range of sources.

heer panzer divisions were invloved in all the crucial fights of ww2 and before the advent of SS panzer divisions in late 42 early 43 its was them that bore the brunt of the fighting across all fronts.

[infantryscout]

It's a pity there is not greater interest in that division. I knew the late Knight's Cross Holder Hardy Svenson (formerly Eberhard Schmalz)who was with Panzer-Jaeger Abt. 43 from 1938 to late 1942. He was awarded the DKiG on the Don bend blasting nine T-34's with the Marder III mounting the Russian 76-mm. One even rammed his tank and he shot it in the ass by looking through the breech of the gun in order to aim it!
After OCS school he chose not to go back to the 8 panzer because of the Marder III. He went to an infantry division instead because they had Stug III vacancy in their Panzer-Jaeger abteilung.

Cheers,
Phil

[Jan-Hendrik]

Nice Info , dear Phil

By the way , from January on Vol.2 of this history :

http://www.archiv-8panzer-division.de/

of 8th Panzer is ready to order , it will include info on Schwere Panzerabteilung 510



Jan-Hendrik