Jan-Hendrik
The Sd. Kfz. 234 Thread!!!
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Commissar D, the Evil
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Yes, absolutely. But the significance of Schaufler's remark, IMHO, was simply that it didn't sound like a repetition of Neumann's because it tied the issue to a very pressing practical concern for 4th Panzer at the time. Fuel was extremely scarce, but not diesel fuel.
It is of course, possible that the Division's 234/1s were mistaken for 234/4s, but not, IMHO, likely as the two vehicles played different roles in the fighting.
Jan-Hendrik, my friend, please take a look at this Thread (paticularly the chart) and tell me how it fits into our discussion:
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 00&start=0
Best,
David
It is of course, possible that the Division's 234/1s were mistaken for 234/4s, but not, IMHO, likely as the two vehicles played different roles in the fighting.
Jan-Hendrik, my friend, please take a look at this Thread (paticularly the chart) and tell me how it fits into our discussion:
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 00&start=0
Best,
David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....
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Okay Jan-Hendrick, a friendly challenge from the Commissar for both you and my dear friend Martin. From the diary of Ulrich Sachse, P. 191, "So Lebten und so staubensie" by Hans Schaufler:
This translation is courtesy of Prit Buttar, Forum Hero and Doctor:
"The final battle of Tuchel. Powerful enemy forces advance step by step northwards. A.4 defends Kelpin and the are to the north, falling back from one position to the next. The 8-wheeled armored cars with their stubby 75mm guns and 18 mm armour stand in the path of the heavy enemy tanks, side by side with the StuGs.
With 80 shells on board, Unteroffizier Janson storms forwrd again and again, until a direct hit blows his tank to fragments...."
So, what 8-wheeled armored car was this? It could be an Sd. Kfz. 233, but it could also be an Sd. Kfz. 234/3.
Very Best,
David
This translation is courtesy of Prit Buttar, Forum Hero and Doctor:
"The final battle of Tuchel. Powerful enemy forces advance step by step northwards. A.4 defends Kelpin and the are to the north, falling back from one position to the next. The 8-wheeled armored cars with their stubby 75mm guns and 18 mm armour stand in the path of the heavy enemy tanks, side by side with the StuGs.
With 80 shells on board, Unteroffizier Janson storms forwrd again and again, until a direct hit blows his tank to fragments...."
So, what 8-wheeled armored car was this? It could be an Sd. Kfz. 233, but it could also be an Sd. Kfz. 234/3.
Very Best,
David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....
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Curses!!!!! Foiled again!!!!! 
Say, Jan Hendrik, can you ask Martin to drop by? I fully intend to keep pursuing this issue until I run out of resources!!!! Of course, once I run out of resources, I will have to use rhetoric instead, but you would be surprised at the number of folks who can't distinguish between the two.....
Very Best,
David
Say, Jan Hendrik, can you ask Martin to drop by? I fully intend to keep pursuing this issue until I run out of resources!!!! Of course, once I run out of resources, I will have to use rhetoric instead, but you would be surprised at the number of folks who can't distinguish between the two.....
Very Best,
David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....
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Well , I have high hopes that this one will not remain a DCC-JHW-show only
Our dear Martin is busy on the "Clausewitz" , I think ( and hope ) , but maybe he finds time to jump in and makes us falling on our knees again ( as he did here http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=5174 , I know , somthing completly different , but THAT was really outstanding information ) . But maybe others may have got some "appetite" to contribute here , too
![:[]](./images/smilies/icon_study.gif "Study")
Jan-Hendrik
Our dear Martin is busy on the "Clausewitz" , I think ( and hope ) , but maybe he finds time to jump in and makes us falling on our knees again ( as he did here http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=5174 , I know , somthing completly different , but THAT was really outstanding information ) . But maybe others may have got some "appetite" to contribute here , too
Jan-Hendrik
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Damn! Jan-Hendrik, that was a great post by Martin! You're right, let's keep him out of this!
I'm going to devote some time to finding a 234/3 or 234/4 in the 4th Panzer Division in 1945--so, prepare yourself for the next onslaught!!!
Very Best,
David
I'm going to devote some time to finding a 234/3 or 234/4 in the 4th Panzer Division in 1945--so, prepare yourself for the next onslaught!!!
Very Best,
David
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....
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Martin Block
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4. Pz.Div. Sd.Kfz. 234/1
Hi guys,
hope you don't mind me jump in here and add some flesh to the bone, i.e. show you in some more detail that my claims do not come out of the blue in this case.
(On a sidenote: David and Jan-Hendrik be warned! If you continue to praise my humble contributions like that, the day may be not far away when I lose ground contact and might respond to further questions only after they begin with something like "Please Your Excellency ...." or the like )
For many years I took the statement made by Neumann in his outstanding divisional history of the 4. Pz.Div. as a fact. I had no reason to doubt it looking at the overall level of detail and quality of his book. It is however noteworthy that Neumann makes his claim only once in just one half sentence and never again mentions anything about those "8-Rad-Pz.Spähwagen (Tatra-Diesel) mit 7,5 cm-Kwk-lang."
First doubts came when I got a copy of well known Panzer Guru Tom Jentz's Museum Ordnance Special covering the Sd.Kfz. 234 series published in 1998. In this he stated that only one shipment of 7 234/1 was sent to 4. Pz.Div. on 29.1.1945, nothing else from this Sd.kfz. series before or after that. Through the years my archive grew and I was finally able to draw my own conclusions. This is what my available wartime documents tell me:
Source 1: Monthly allocation and shipment lists for Pz.Späh-Wagen kept by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr.
Unfortunately these lists do only in rare cases distinguish the exact variants of armored recce cars. In this particular case they only show that 7 s.Pz.Sp.Wg. were allocated to 4. Pz.Div. on 23.1.1945 and that these 7 vehicles were then actually shipped from a H.Za. on 29.1.1945 with train transport no. 2009.
During the whole month of January 1945 a total of 62 (55 schwere (heavy) and 7 leichte (light)) Pz.Sp.Wg. left the ordnance depot (usually H.Za. Naumburg). Less than half of them went to units on or close to the front, the others went to the replacement army or units refitting or forming in various armor training areas. Only three shipments went to the northern sector of the Eastern front:
a) a total of 15 s.Pz.Sp.Wg. to 24. Pz.Div. in East Prussia in two shipments on 13./17.1.1945
b) the one to 4. Pz.Div. under H.Gr. Weichsel on 29.1.1945 already mentioned.
The 24. Pz.Div. had just been transferred to East Prussia from the area of H.Gr. Süd leaving behind most of its heavy equipment. It was supplied with new tanks and armored vehicles during mid January 1945 and from the files of the 24. Pz.Div. I have no reason to believe they did not get what they were sent. Although the battalion history of Pz.A.A. 24 is not very specific about this, at least it does not complain about any major shortages in January 1945 which I take as additional indication that their material did arrive.
No other later shipment during the months of February, March and April 1945 came even close to the area where 4. Pz.Div. was located at that time.
So here you see the problem. It is not possible to match any documented s.Pz.Sp.Wg. transport to Neumanns claim of 25.1.1945! And please don't argue with me about the Germans probably not being able to keep their records straight during the final months of the war. Mistakes and errors no doubt happened but not at a very large scale. You would be surprised to learn how well the 'paper warriors' fought right up to the final days of the war!
Source 2: Dokument prepared by the quartermaster (O.Qu.) of H.Gr. Weichsel listing the arrival of all supply transports loaded with tanks and other armored vehicles in his area of responsibility during the month of February 1945
According to this document only 3 transports with P.Sp.Wg. arrived during the whole month:
Train no. 2009 with 7 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 for the 4. Pz.Div.
Train no. 2083 with 6 Sd.Kfz. 234/4 for the Führer-Begl.Div.
Train no. 2096 with 4 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 for the Führer-Gren.Div.
Train transport numbers of the latter two also match exactly with shipments to the two 'Führer' divisions in Februar 1945 as given in monthly allocation and shipment lists for Pz.Späh-Wagen kept by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr.
Source 3: Report about the status of the refit of the 4. Pz.Div. prepared for Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. by a certain Major Petsch on 5.2.1945
This comes with an appendix prepared by the Ib/W.u.G (officer responsible for divisional weapons and equipment) of the 4. Pz.Div., a detailed list of the divisions available tanks and armored vehicles as well as another one about all availabe weapons. The list gives the 'Soll' and 'Ist' for each vehicle type authorized for the division. In the Pz.Sp.Wg. section one finds these Sd.Kfz. types in addition to 18 (plus 2 under major repairs) 'Luchs':
Sd.Kfz. 222: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=4
Sd.Kfz. 223: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=4
Sd.Kfz. 232: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=3
Sd.Kfz. 233: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=6
Sd.Kfz. 234/1: authorized=13, allocated=7, arrived=0, on hand=0
Sd.Kfz. 234/4: authorized=3, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=0
Sd.Kfz. 247: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=1
Sd.Kfz. 261: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=1
Sd.Kfz. 263: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=2
An additional remark on the backside of the document states that the 7 allocated Sd.Kfz. 234/1 had in the meantime arrived in Danzig.
So we end up with one single claim in an otherwise outstanding postwar book vs. a pretty coherent story made up from original documents from three different sources and last but surely not least Tom Jentz's findings. Everyone may draw his own conclusions but guess what I find more convincing! Unless of course anyone comes up with something better and makes me stand corrected or fall back down to earth in a crash landing .
Gentlemen, thank you for the calm and polite discussion of this matter! Whenever one dares to argue against anything published one is in grave danger to get a serious bashing for commiting sort of a sacrilege.
Martin Block
hope you don't mind me jump in here and add some flesh to the bone, i.e. show you in some more detail that my claims do not come out of the blue in this case.
(On a sidenote: David and Jan-Hendrik be warned! If you continue to praise my humble contributions like that, the day may be not far away when I lose ground contact and might respond to further questions only after they begin with something like "Please Your Excellency ...." or the like
)For many years I took the statement made by Neumann in his outstanding divisional history of the 4. Pz.Div. as a fact. I had no reason to doubt it looking at the overall level of detail and quality of his book. It is however noteworthy that Neumann makes his claim only once in just one half sentence and never again mentions anything about those "8-Rad-Pz.Spähwagen (Tatra-Diesel) mit 7,5 cm-Kwk-lang."
First doubts came when I got a copy of well known Panzer Guru Tom Jentz's Museum Ordnance Special covering the Sd.Kfz. 234 series published in 1998. In this he stated that only one shipment of 7 234/1 was sent to 4. Pz.Div. on 29.1.1945, nothing else from this Sd.kfz. series before or after that. Through the years my archive grew and I was finally able to draw my own conclusions. This is what my available wartime documents tell me:
Source 1: Monthly allocation and shipment lists for Pz.Späh-Wagen kept by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr.
Unfortunately these lists do only in rare cases distinguish the exact variants of armored recce cars. In this particular case they only show that 7 s.Pz.Sp.Wg. were allocated to 4. Pz.Div. on 23.1.1945 and that these 7 vehicles were then actually shipped from a H.Za. on 29.1.1945 with train transport no. 2009.
During the whole month of January 1945 a total of 62 (55 schwere (heavy) and 7 leichte (light)) Pz.Sp.Wg. left the ordnance depot (usually H.Za. Naumburg). Less than half of them went to units on or close to the front, the others went to the replacement army or units refitting or forming in various armor training areas. Only three shipments went to the northern sector of the Eastern front:
a) a total of 15 s.Pz.Sp.Wg. to 24. Pz.Div. in East Prussia in two shipments on 13./17.1.1945
b) the one to 4. Pz.Div. under H.Gr. Weichsel on 29.1.1945 already mentioned.
The 24. Pz.Div. had just been transferred to East Prussia from the area of H.Gr. Süd leaving behind most of its heavy equipment. It was supplied with new tanks and armored vehicles during mid January 1945 and from the files of the 24. Pz.Div. I have no reason to believe they did not get what they were sent. Although the battalion history of Pz.A.A. 24 is not very specific about this, at least it does not complain about any major shortages in January 1945 which I take as additional indication that their material did arrive.
No other later shipment during the months of February, March and April 1945 came even close to the area where 4. Pz.Div. was located at that time.
So here you see the problem. It is not possible to match any documented s.Pz.Sp.Wg. transport to Neumanns claim of 25.1.1945! And please don't argue with me about the Germans probably not being able to keep their records straight during the final months of the war. Mistakes and errors no doubt happened but not at a very large scale. You would be surprised to learn how well the 'paper warriors' fought right up to the final days of the war!
Source 2: Dokument prepared by the quartermaster (O.Qu.) of H.Gr. Weichsel listing the arrival of all supply transports loaded with tanks and other armored vehicles in his area of responsibility during the month of February 1945
According to this document only 3 transports with P.Sp.Wg. arrived during the whole month:
Train no. 2009 with 7 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 for the 4. Pz.Div.
Train no. 2083 with 6 Sd.Kfz. 234/4 for the Führer-Begl.Div.
Train no. 2096 with 4 Sd.Kfz. 234/1 for the Führer-Gren.Div.
Train transport numbers of the latter two also match exactly with shipments to the two 'Führer' divisions in Februar 1945 as given in monthly allocation and shipment lists for Pz.Späh-Wagen kept by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr.
Source 3: Report about the status of the refit of the 4. Pz.Div. prepared for Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. by a certain Major Petsch on 5.2.1945
This comes with an appendix prepared by the Ib/W.u.G (officer responsible for divisional weapons and equipment) of the 4. Pz.Div., a detailed list of the divisions available tanks and armored vehicles as well as another one about all availabe weapons. The list gives the 'Soll' and 'Ist' for each vehicle type authorized for the division. In the Pz.Sp.Wg. section one finds these Sd.Kfz. types in addition to 18 (plus 2 under major repairs) 'Luchs':
Sd.Kfz. 222: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=4
Sd.Kfz. 223: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=4
Sd.Kfz. 232: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=3
Sd.Kfz. 233: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=6
Sd.Kfz. 234/1: authorized=13, allocated=7, arrived=0, on hand=0
Sd.Kfz. 234/4: authorized=3, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=0
Sd.Kfz. 247: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=1
Sd.Kfz. 261: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=1
Sd.Kfz. 263: authorized=0, allocated=0, arrived=0, on hand=2
An additional remark on the backside of the document states that the 7 allocated Sd.Kfz. 234/1 had in the meantime arrived in Danzig.
So we end up with one single claim in an otherwise outstanding postwar book vs. a pretty coherent story made up from original documents from three different sources and last but surely not least Tom Jentz's findings. Everyone may draw his own conclusions but guess what I find more convincing! Unless of course anyone comes up with something better and makes me stand corrected or fall back down to earth in a crash landing
.Gentlemen, thank you for the calm and polite discussion of this matter! Whenever one dares to argue against anything published one is in grave danger to get a serious bashing for commiting sort of a sacrilege.
Martin Block