Germany's Best Victory

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:43 am

Doktor Krollspell wrote:Hello Gentlemen!

If you look at the Federal Republic of Germany for the past almost 60 years that have gone by, one could argue that the best German victory in WWII was that of May 1945... Unconditional surrender and the total overthrow/annihilation of one of the most totalitarian and evil regimes in history. The result today being one of the largest, richest and most democratic nations in the world.

And fellas, I'm not trying to start a heated debate on this! I think that you all have made valid claims for the "Best victory" category. I'm just trying to find some different angles...

With best regards,

Krollspell

Hi Doktor, in May 1945, the regime was not that "evil", since Grand Admiral Donitz took over, no war crimes were exactly ordered during that last period, and no baddies like Himmler were in the government, and at that time Donitz's goal was not for conquering territories, exterminating other races, etc like the regime before but to save innocent German and Eastern peoples civilians and normal German soldiers from the Bolsheviks, a goal I would call humane and worth fighting for. So the earlier surrender on May 8th could not be called a victory, since many innocents still had to escape and now could not, escape from the east. But also, I would call the Kriegsmarine's evaciation of innocent East Prussian civilians from the Bolsheviks in East Prussia a victory, a very humane one. But please, do not take me as a revisionist, etc.

helmut

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:02 am

Helmut Von Moltke wrote:
... before but to save innocent German and Eastern peoples civilians and normal German soldiers from the Bolsheviks, a goal I would call humane and worth fighting for. So the earlier surrender on May 8th could not be called a victory, since many innocents still had to escape and now could not, escape from the east...

helmut

Calling anything which came from the east Bolshevik is like calling every German soldier a Nazi. If is can't stand the latter and I also can't stand the first. Please, stop it. I imagine the European theater in WWII was probably thousands of miles away from where you live now - and the thought that someone comments on very complicated things so easily is simply wrong and injust doing in my opinion.

just my two cents...

Miha

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:10 am

Nibelung wrote:
Helmut Von Moltke wrote:
... before but to save innocent German and Eastern peoples civilians and normal German soldiers from the Bolsheviks, a goal I would call humane and worth fighting for. So the earlier surrender on May 8th could not be called a victory, since many innocents still had to escape and now could not, escape from the east...

helmut
Calling anything which came from the east Bolshevik is like calling every German soldier a Nazi. If is can't stand the latter and I also can't stand the first. Please, stop it. I imagine the European theater in WWII was probably thousands of miles away from where you live now - and the thought that someone comments on very complicated things so easily is simply wrong and injust doing in my opinion.

just my two cents...

Miha

hi, I never mentioned that anything coming from the East is Bolshevik. General Vlassov and his Russian Wehrmacht army of liberation was from the East, were they Bolsheviks? I find this accusation not supported by evidence written by me.

helmut

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:19 am

Please don't twist my words, you know perfectly well what I mean. And I do know exactly what you mean or want to say - your quotes, your attitude, your comments etc. show quite well what you're in to.

I have nothing more to say.

Miha

P.S. Moderators, please excuse me, but the bucket was full.

Laurent Daniel · Post by **Laurent Daniel** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:23 am

Hi Helmut,
Two small things to "moderate" your post above:
1 - Himmler was at the side of Doenitz till the end. The concentration camps were still active and the one who were too near from the Red Army were evacuated through what is oftenly and rightly called the "Death Walks".
2 - The NSDAP and the SS were not disbanded after Hitler death. They were active till the end, forcing children and elderly people to join the Volksturm and fight for... nothing. Cases where Town Mayors or local Authorities members were threatened or even killed because they were trying to convince some SS or NSDAP guys to surrender peacefully instead of getting the town destroyed are known.

That being said, it is right that, during the last days of the war, the remnants of the Heer and the Kriegsmarine in the East shown a great courage and abnegation, keeping fighting while they all knew it was over, just to allow civilians to flee towards the West.

Nibelung, I fully agree with your comment re. not all Nazis, not all Bolscheviks. But, for those German soldiers who were fighting and often giving their lives trying to get as many civilians as possible out the East, all the Red Army soldiers were Bolschevik...
And, yes, they were NOT all commies, but considering what they have done in Berlin, most of them were, how to say.... Well, gimme the proper word, thanks.

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:30 am

Laurent Daniel wrote: Nibelung, I fully agree with your comment re. not all Nazis, not all Bolscheviks. But, for those German soldiers who were fighting and often giving their lives trying to get as many civilians as possible out the East, all the Red Army soldiers were Bolschevik...
And, yes, they were NOT all commies, but considering what they have done in Berlin, most of them were, how to say.... Well, gimme the proper word, thanks.

Laurent, I know what you want to say. I've been thinking about this issue too - not to say that I can't really deny the civil evacuations and the Wehrmacht's struggle; my grandfather was on of those men who stood there facing the RA. But that should not affect my or anyone else's view on things.

I wish to avoind political views here, so this comment is the last one from me.

best,
Miha

Alex Coles · Post by **Alex Coles** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:23 am

Ok, that's a little OT so back to the topic. Oh, and btw Admiral Karl Dönitz took control of the remainder of Germany from Hitler when there was only a day or two left, so how could they stop war crimes that quick? Oh, and the East Prussian eveacuation was actually done in winter but that was very costly for the germans had to hold off the russians until the kriegsmarine could arrive.

Helmut, Doktor never said surrender was a victory, HE SAID that getting Hitler out of power was a victory. Stop twisting people's words and go actually do some research before you come back with an answer.

Doktor Krollspell · Post by **Doktor Krollspell** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:23 am

To Helmut et al.

First, to clarify my earlier post on this matter... My point was that the united BRD of today, and the BRD of the last, say four decades, must clearly be one of WWII's greatest winners. This also apply for modern day Japan. So, by losing WWII so utterly and unconditionally as Germany (and Japan) did, the enormous evolution/progress is quite amazing, don't you agree.

Secondly, when it comes to all the innocent East prussian/eastern german civilians in 1945 that recieved the full weight of the Soviet Union and it's Red Army, I really, deeply feel for them...

...as much as for the Soviet civilians, POW's, and let's not forget about the jewish population in eastern Europe, when Nazi Germany attacked on June 22 some four years earlier.

I am NOT interested in a discussion of the type "who was more evil", "who killed most people", "Hitler vs. Stalin" etc. or for that matter who's side fought for a more "noble" cause. As far as I'm concerned, they where two evil systems doing evil things during evil times...

Regards,

Krollspell

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:40 am

hi Doktor, point taken. people please, no more argument.

helmut

Alex Coles · Post by **Alex Coles** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:43 am

Period. (

)

Anyway, anyone else think there was another german victory?

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:01 pm

17 SS Panzer Grenadier wrote:Period. ( )

Anyway, anyone else think there was another german victory?

I think Narvik, since small number of Mountain troops and Kriegsmarine sailors under General Dietl maganed to hold out and defeat superior British forces. This ensured German control in Scandanavia for the next 4 years.

helmut

Laurent Daniel · Post by **Laurent Daniel** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:41 pm

Helmut Von Moltke wrote: I think Narvik, since small number of Mountain troops and Kriegsmarine sailors under General Dietl maganed to hold out and defeat superior British forces. This ensured German control in Scandanavia for the next 4 years.
helmut

Ahem....
You forgot the French (Including the 13DBLE of the Legion) and the Poles who were part of the Allied forces at Narvik.
Moreover, the German forces of Dietl lost, Narvik harbour was occupied by the Allies.
But they were all re-embarqued from 4 to 7 June 1940, the situation in France being too dramatic to let them there.
The Legion was the first unit to reach Narvik harbour and the last to be evacuated.

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:14 am

hi, yes I know that Narvik harbour fell, but the Germans managed to hold the hills surrounding Narcik and maintained pressure with artillery taken from sunken Kriegsmarine ships. Also, if it hadn't been a victory, why would there be a Narvik campaign shield? And as well, just to mention, this battle should be considered a victory because since the Allies evacuated it left the Germans in control of Scandanavia for the rest of the war.[/img]

Alex Coles · Post by **Alex Coles** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:22 am

Well actually, the Gebirgsjägers were pushed back from Narvik when they occupied it ONCE. Anyway, why don't the Norwegians get any credit? They actually fought quite well so I wouldn't class it as the one of the greatest german victories.

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:27 am

17 SS Panzer Grenadier wrote:Well actually, the Gebirgsjägers were pushed back from Narvik when they occupied it ONCE. Anyway, why don't the Norwegians get any credit? They actually fought quite well so I wouldn't class it as the one of the greatest german victories.

But the Germans in the first few days managed to capture most of the important pots like Oslo, Bergen, etc, with daring, as they filled innocent looking cargo ships full of Wehrmacht troops, passing unnoticed under the very noses of the British.