WW2 vets in Vietnam

[FK]

I served two tours in Vietnam, and yes, I did come across a handful of ww2 vets. A helicopter pilot I knew had served as a combat-infantryman in Normandy. The majority of the vets i saw serving there were American vets of the pacific theater though.

[Lepakko]

Guys. I hope this helps clairify things a bit.


One of those soldiers was the lefgendary Gary Thorne. I forget the proper spelling of his Finnish name. it was something like Torne with Finnish characters. Thorne was a member of the Finnish Army in WWII and fought against the Russians were he earned the Mannerheim Cross 3 or 4 times. He was later trained by the SS and awarded and EK II for his actions against the Russians. Later after the Finns made a truce with the Russians many Finns like Thorne were outlawed and prusued as crimminals and could not find haven anywhere. To make a long story short, Gary, with the help of other Finns in the US Army, changed his name, join the Infantyr and went to SF training and became a legend within the 10th Group. Later in Vietnam where he served in the mid 60's he went missing and is believed to have perished in a helo crash.


Just my opinion of this uproar.
Best to all
Fish

Lauri Törni, alias Larry Thorne won the Mannerheim Cross, but only once. Only two individuals won it thice: fighter pilots Hans Wind and Ilmari Juutilainen.

He was in Germany, in the SS, twice, first in 1941, just for a short time, and then 1944-1945 after Finland had to make peace with soviets.

[Laurent Daniel]

About the German volunteers within the French Expeditionary Corp in Indochina:
I recently got the archives of Roger, a 80 y.o. French veteran, who jointed first the French underground resistance in 43 then served in Indochina in 46. He arrived in Saigon onboard the Néa-Hélas on 7 March 1946. This 80 y.o. tough guy put all his documents, photos and writting in a CD and sent that to me "in case my kids aren't interested by my originals". Thanks Roger

An extract of his text (Don't worry, the english translation is below)

"Il faut se rappeler que le corps expéditionnaire n'a été formé que de volontaires.
Pour cela, on a recruté aussi parmi les prisonniers Allemands pour la légion étrangère. Certains de ceux ci se sont évadés dés le passage du Canal de Suez. D'autres ne l'ayant pas pu, ont souhaité continuer la guerre et ont rejoint le Vieth-Minh dés qu'ils l'ont pu. Pour y mettre fin il a fallu envoyer des légionnaires volontaires faisant semblant de vouloir se rallier aux Vieths et arrosant ceux ci lorsqu'ils se présentaient."
-------------------------
"One has to remember that this Expeditionary Corp was formed only with volunteers.
For such, we also recruited among the German POW for the Legion. Some escaped from the ship at the Suez canal. Some others, who couldn't escape, wished to follow the war against the French and joined the Viet-Minh as soon as they could. To prevent it, we had to send volunteers Legionnaires who were acting as if they wanted to surrender to the Viets and then shooting at them as soon as they were showing themselves"

[M.H.]

About the German volunteers within the French Expeditionary Corp in Indochina:
I recently got the archives of Roger, a 80 y.o. French veteran, who jointed first the French underground resistance in 43 then served in Indochina in 46. He arrived in Saigon onboard the Néa-Hélas on 7 March 1946. This 80 y.o. tough guy put all his documents, photos and writting in a CD and sent that to me "in case my kids aren't interested by my originals". Thanks Roger

An extract of his text (Don't worry, the english translation is below)

"Il faut se rappeler que le corps expéditionnaire n'a été formé que de volontaires.
Pour cela, on a recruté aussi parmi les prisonniers Allemands pour la légion étrangère. Certains de ceux ci se sont évadés dés le passage du Canal de Suez. D'autres ne l'ayant pas pu, ont souhaité continuer la guerre et ont rejoint le Vieth-Minh dés qu'ils l'ont pu. Pour y mettre fin il a fallu envoyer des légionnaires volontaires faisant semblant de vouloir se rallier aux Vieths et arrosant ceux ci lorsqu'ils se présentaient."
-------------------------
"One has to remember that this Expeditionary Corp was formed only with volunteers.
For such, we also recruited among the German POW for the Legion. Some escaped from the ship at the Suez canal. Some others, who couldn't escape, wished to follow the war against the French and joined the Viet-Minh as soon as they could. To prevent it, we had to send volunteers Legionnaires who were acting as if they wanted to surrender to the Viets and then shooting at them as soon as they were showing themselves"

Doesn't sound like volunteers at all to me....I mean they tried to desert at the first moment, even preferred to change sides....how did the french "convince" them to join the legion? Torture???

[Laurent Daniel]

Sorry, I should wrote ""volunteers"", double bracket

The recruitment system in 1946 was very simple:
Option 1: You "volunteer" for the Foreign Legion.
Option 2: You go and clear your own minefields in the French countryside.

About 2,000 German POW died in France during the minefield clearing operations. Much less died in Indochina....

When I discovered the story of those 2,000 dead POW, I had a discussion about it with my grandfather, some 30 years ago. When I used the words "Geneva convention", the old man, vet of WW1 at Verdun, where he got gassed and escaped by miracle, and of WW2 in the resistance, had obvious great difficulties not to smash the face of the stupid teenager talking about something he didn't knew anything about. My mum had to interfere and I had to apologise.

It took almost 20 years to De Gaulle to overcome those feelings and start, with Chancellor Conrad Adenauer, the path to peacefull positive French-German relationship. So was France after WW2, full of hate and anger at the "Boches", the Germans in French slang.

Now, to be complete, let me recall that there were brave and faithfull German fighters within the French Foreign Legion at Dien Bien Phu. Mostly former Waffen SS as far as I know.

[M.H.]

Sorry, I should wrote ""volunteers"", double bracket
The recruitment system in 1946 was very simple:
Option 1: You "volunteer" for the Foreign Legion.
Option 2: You go and clear your own minefields in the French countryside.

Aha... ...tough times...

[M.H.]

So was France after WW2, full of hate and anger at the "Boches", the Germans in French slang.

An OT question just out of curiousity:
What is teached in french schools nowadays about the treaty of Versailles
and the unhappy role it (mostly the french) played in the build up to WWII?
Is there any understanding? Or is all blamed only on the germans?

[Laurent Daniel]

I don't think it's OT, let's hope the moderator will agree with me

From my own college time, i.e. about 35 years ago:

Treaty of Versailles: The French and the British asked too much and planted the seed of revenge in the German minds and hearts. The economical crisis that followed in Germany gave chances to extremism to take over. The Communists tried, and failed, the Nazis tried, and won.

French military built-up: The belief in the "Maginot Line" being a sufficient deterrent was a gross mistake mainly due to the incapacity of both the French political class and the French top brass to switch from WW1 tactics to modern tactics as allowed by the technical progress.

Those guys rejected the wise advices of General Estienne, the father of the French tanks in WW1. During WW1 the French produced about 4000 tanks, the British about 2600 and the Germans 20 or 35 according to different sources. Then it all went nowhere in France in spite of the attempts of Charles de Gaulle, called at that time "Colonel motor" by his men.

The phoney war: Both the French and British signed a mutual defense treaty with Poland and let them down when Hitler attacked them. Hitler sent to Poland the main part of his military might at that time. The Rhur was there, available and easy to invade while 99% of the Panzers were in Poland. HQ blindness.

Invasion of France, 1940: On the paper, the military might of Germany and France was more or less equal (I have documents on that if you wish). With the help of the UK, we were "theoretically" superior.

But the Germans had Hitler at the top and Guderian on the front line, while the French had Mr. politician at the top and Mr. no guts at the General HQ.

I stop here, I can block the server with all what I have to say on that topic :-)
Feel free to ask for details

[M.H.]

Treaty of Versailles: The French and the British asked too much and planted the seed of revenge in the German minds and hearts. The economical crisis that followed in Germany gave chances to extremism to take over. The Communists tried, and failed, the Nazis tried, and won.

Thank you Laurent, that info is very interesting for me.

[Laurent Daniel]

May I know why?

[M.H.]

May I know why?

It's always interesting for me to see how history get's teached in different countries. It tell's alot I think...
Now you tell that the whole mess of the Treaty of Versailles get's teached in France with some kind of understanding about what it meaned to the Germans and that should not be seen as granted...

[Laurent Daniel]

It was not granted at all in the immediate aftermath of the war, agreed.

But then 2 great men took action to stop those negative attitudes: Charles de Gaulle and Conrad Adenauer. France and Germany embarked in a strong co-operation program that lead to the creation of the EU.

Meanwhile, both countries ensured that their kids were told the truth.
For the record, we are told, in France, that not all Germans were Nazis and that not all Nazis were Germans, we had our share of them in France.

Then we had in 1984 President Francois Mitterand and Chancellor Elmut Khol hand in hand at a Verdun memorial.
See pix at http://images.google.com/images?q=mitte ... a=N&tab=wi

I like those pictures, especially the top-left one: The coffin is wrapped with the 2 flags. They are symbolic of what the relationship between France and Germany became.
They are also symbolic of my way to learn about WW2

[M.H.]

Yes, I think too that the relationship between France and Germany is now stable and healthy enough to stay strong regardless what the future might bring, so...PEACE!

[Laurent Daniel]

Another one:
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/photos/di ... ion06.html

The Panzergrenadierbataillon 294 in the Avenue des Champs-Elysées in Paris, on ...................... 14 July 1994

[Mario Mirarchi]

Previous posters asked about the burial of Larry Thorne. See this link:

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/larry-thorne.htm