Hi Christoph,
Yes, I was referring to the Dienstzeit. Like to ask another question if I may. My father for instance was called up in 1936 [according to his file, he was not amused]. It seems that he was drafted into 7./II./IR 21 from day one [again his records indicate this], or does his record merely mean that was destined for this unit. [Civil records also indicate that he actually reported to II./IR 21 on day one]. Would I be right in assuming that training was done within the battalion/company rather than a training battalion or such like? I find this strange, unless the unit itself was being built from scratch otherwise I would think that it would be very disruptive. Incidentally he returned to this company etc., when called up for active service in 1939. On completion of the Dienstzeit he was posted to the 17 ID Ersatz Btl. It seems that the more I know, the more there is to figure out.
- Hans
How long was basic training?
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Christoph Awender
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Christoph Awender
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Hello again
That is interesting. The Jahrgang 1914 was the first age class drafted into the newly formed Wehrmacht in fall 1935. Infanterieregiment 21 was formed in October 1936. At the beginning the service was 1 year but before the age class drafted in fall 1935 was finished they introduced the 2 year service.
I am on 24hours shift at them moment and don´t have my books but I would say that probably the documentation of his military training before Oktober 1936 is lost. I don ´t think that he was drafted right into the Inf.Rgt.21 without any prior training at another unit. Would it be possible that the documentation is lost or are you 100% sure that in Oktober 1936 it was his first contact with the military ever? Could it be that he was not amused because he already served the one year (which was law when he was drafted) and got the additional year expansion shortly after or shortly before his dismissal?
\Christoph
That is interesting. The Jahrgang 1914 was the first age class drafted into the newly formed Wehrmacht in fall 1935. Infanterieregiment 21 was formed in October 1936. At the beginning the service was 1 year but before the age class drafted in fall 1935 was finished they introduced the 2 year service.
I am on 24hours shift at them moment and don´t have my books but I would say that probably the documentation of his military training before Oktober 1936 is lost. I don ´t think that he was drafted right into the Inf.Rgt.21 without any prior training at another unit. Would it be possible that the documentation is lost or are you 100% sure that in Oktober 1936 it was his first contact with the military ever? Could it be that he was not amused because he already served the one year (which was law when he was drafted) and got the additional year expansion shortly after or shortly before his dismissal?
\Christoph
Christoph,
His first contact with the military was 12 June 1935 [Musterungs - Ausweis 1935]. Entscheid: Tauglich.
On 9 October 1935 he received an Ersatzreserve I Schein "... wird hiermit als ueberzaehlig in die Ersatzreserve I ueberfuehrt".
On 25 August 1936 he received his Bestellungsbefehl [Aushebungsliste 14/I, Nr 1196] "Sie werden hierdurch zum aktiven Wehrdienst bei Heer II. I..R 21 in Nurnberg als Dienstpflichtiger ausgehoben und haben sich am 14 Oktober 1936 um 17 Uhr bei II. Inf. Regt. 21 in Nurnberg - Nr 9 - Gustav - Adolfstrasse 2 zu melden."
On 2 November 1936 he writes his "Lebenslauf" as a member of 7./Inf. Regt. 21.
- Hans
His first contact with the military was 12 June 1935 [Musterungs - Ausweis 1935]. Entscheid: Tauglich.
On 9 October 1935 he received an Ersatzreserve I Schein "... wird hiermit als ueberzaehlig in die Ersatzreserve I ueberfuehrt".
On 25 August 1936 he received his Bestellungsbefehl [Aushebungsliste 14/I, Nr 1196] "Sie werden hierdurch zum aktiven Wehrdienst bei Heer II. I..R 21 in Nurnberg als Dienstpflichtiger ausgehoben und haben sich am 14 Oktober 1936 um 17 Uhr bei II. Inf. Regt. 21 in Nurnberg - Nr 9 - Gustav - Adolfstrasse 2 zu melden."
On 2 November 1936 he writes his "Lebenslauf" as a member of 7./Inf. Regt. 21.
- Hans
Was haben wir für dich gewollt
Du deutsches Vaterland?
- H Gehr IR 21./17.ID
Du deutsches Vaterland?
- H Gehr IR 21./17.ID
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Christoph Awender
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Hello
Ah Ok... that is interesting. So he was put into Ersatzreserve I (fit untrained men under age of 35) and was drafted into the newly formed Inf.Rgt.21 with II.Btl in Nürnberg which was the Ergänzungs-Bataillon of the regiment, I.Btl. in Fürth and III.Btl. in Erlangen.
So in this case and in this system he received his basic training in the II.(Ergänzungs-) Bataillon of the Inf.Rgt.21.
The system was quite complicated sometimes. :-)
\Christoph
Ah Ok... that is interesting. So he was put into Ersatzreserve I (fit untrained men under age of 35) and was drafted into the newly formed Inf.Rgt.21 with II.Btl in Nürnberg which was the Ergänzungs-Bataillon of the regiment, I.Btl. in Fürth and III.Btl. in Erlangen.
So in this case and in this system he received his basic training in the II.(Ergänzungs-) Bataillon of the Inf.Rgt.21.
The system was quite complicated sometimes. :-)
\Christoph
Christoph,
You are not kidding.The Ersatz Btl./IR 21 was located in Furth, also. This was the unit he was posted to after he finished his Dienstzeit. Then back to 7./II./IR 21 for the first half of the war.
Thanks. It sometimes helps to get another opinion on things that seem quite clear and then on closer examination become quite confusing.
- Hans
You are not kidding.The Ersatz Btl./IR 21 was located in Furth, also. This was the unit he was posted to after he finished his Dienstzeit. Then back to 7./II./IR 21 for the first half of the war.
Thanks. It sometimes helps to get another opinion on things that seem quite clear and then on closer examination become quite confusing.
- Hans
Was haben wir für dich gewollt
Du deutsches Vaterland?
- H Gehr IR 21./17.ID
Du deutsches Vaterland?
- H Gehr IR 21./17.ID
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Christoph Awender
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Hello
The Inf.Ersatz Btl.21 was formed in Fürth on 26.August 1939.
So to sum up:
Mustered June 1935 and put into Ersatzreserve I
Called up for active service into the II.(Ergänzungs-) Btl./21 in Nürnberg October 1936
Military duty from 14.10.1936 to 25.10.1938
Again drafted into the Inf.Ers.Btl.21 in Fürth
Did he stay in the regiment for the rest of his service?
\Christoph
The Inf.Ersatz Btl.21 was formed in Fürth on 26.August 1939.
So to sum up:
Mustered June 1935 and put into Ersatzreserve I
Called up for active service into the II.(Ergänzungs-) Btl./21 in Nürnberg October 1936
Military duty from 14.10.1936 to 25.10.1938
Again drafted into the Inf.Ers.Btl.21 in Fürth
Did he stay in the regiment for the rest of his service?
\Christoph
Hi Christoph,
No! On 31 January 1942 - Transferred to 3./Infantrie Ersatz Btl. 46 and then Stabskp./IR 72.
3 August 1942 - to 1./I./IR 42.
24 September 1942 - Seriously wounded.
Then to Grenadier Ersatz Btl. 72 in Pardubitz.
Then to Feld Genesenden Marschkompanie 47.
2 February 1944 - Returned to 1./I./GR 72.
22 February 1944 - MIA Grivoj Rog.
- Hans
No! On 31 January 1942 - Transferred to 3./Infantrie Ersatz Btl. 46 and then Stabskp./IR 72.
3 August 1942 - to 1./I./IR 42.
24 September 1942 - Seriously wounded.
Then to Grenadier Ersatz Btl. 72 in Pardubitz.
Then to Feld Genesenden Marschkompanie 47.
2 February 1944 - Returned to 1./I./GR 72.
22 February 1944 - MIA Grivoj Rog.
- Hans
Was haben wir für dich gewollt
Du deutsches Vaterland?
- H Gehr IR 21./17.ID
Du deutsches Vaterland?
- H Gehr IR 21./17.ID
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UK Lightgunner
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Christoph,at no stage of the conversation did i say,or imply, that i did not belive you.
On the information we have been discussing,i just said i had NOT HEARD of basic training for a German infantryman lasting six weeks untill late in ww2,which is well known,for instance,my British Army basic training in 1984 lasted 12 weeks,then 6 weeks gunnery (ARTILLERY) before being posted to my regiment,the first 6 weeks we learnt the basics of marching and weapons etc then we had to `PASS OFF`the square in front of the Regimental Sergeant Major and the camp CO to qualify for the next 6 weeks.Like i said,you learn very little in 6 weeks unless it was all infantry weapons and tactics all day long.
I find your attitude somewhat puzzling,you offer the information,ie `basic was 6 or 7 weeks`then throw your dummy out of the pram when someone gives an opinion that you obviously dont like,very proffessional i must say,i have asked on this forum,and The Axis History forum many times for this information and so far it has offered none,please explain in a less agressive tone next time perhaps and we can carry on the coverstion in a grown up manner?
On the information we have been discussing,i just said i had NOT HEARD of basic training for a German infantryman lasting six weeks untill late in ww2,which is well known,for instance,my British Army basic training in 1984 lasted 12 weeks,then 6 weeks gunnery (ARTILLERY) before being posted to my regiment,the first 6 weeks we learnt the basics of marching and weapons etc then we had to `PASS OFF`the square in front of the Regimental Sergeant Major and the camp CO to qualify for the next 6 weeks.Like i said,you learn very little in 6 weeks unless it was all infantry weapons and tactics all day long.
I find your attitude somewhat puzzling,you offer the information,ie `basic was 6 or 7 weeks`then throw your dummy out of the pram when someone gives an opinion that you obviously dont like,very proffessional i must say,i have asked on this forum,and The Axis History forum many times for this information and so far it has offered none,please explain in a less agressive tone next time perhaps and we can carry on the coverstion in a grown up manner?
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Christoph Awender
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Well I am a host of the Axishistory Forum and if you did not get an answer it is because I obviously missed the thread there.
What I do not understand (and not like - because of that my harsh reaction) when you say "I have not heard" is that how can that be a factor when you did not do any research on this topic. I also never have heard of many things because I did not research them. If ou would have done research work about this topic you would have heard. That is what makes me think that your words were a little bit "strange".
You cannot simply look at modern military training. Basic training in the Austrian army now is 4 weeks for example.
But instead of comparing you have to look into the system of the Wehrmacht nothing else.
The basic training was not much... in it they learned the basic things of a soldier like receiving orders, wear the uniform, greeting rules, marching, crawling, handling the rifle, etc... That does not take too much time.
After this "Grundausbildung" (basic training) they were introduced into their positions in the Infanteriegruppe. Which means rifleman, machinegunner 1, 2, 3, mortar crew, Kompanietrupp member, driver, coach driver etc.. etc..
This was the "Weiterführende Ausbildung" which included extensive training with the personal and operating weapon, group tactics, tactics within higher formations, cooperation with tanks, artillery etc.. etc..
Later in the war these things were often included in the basic training to make it shorter.
\Christoph
What I do not understand (and not like - because of that my harsh reaction) when you say "I have not heard" is that how can that be a factor when you did not do any research on this topic. I also never have heard of many things because I did not research them. If ou would have done research work about this topic you would have heard. That is what makes me think that your words were a little bit "strange".
You cannot simply look at modern military training. Basic training in the Austrian army now is 4 weeks for example.
But instead of comparing you have to look into the system of the Wehrmacht nothing else.
The basic training was not much... in it they learned the basic things of a soldier like receiving orders, wear the uniform, greeting rules, marching, crawling, handling the rifle, etc... That does not take too much time.
After this "Grundausbildung" (basic training) they were introduced into their positions in the Infanteriegruppe. Which means rifleman, machinegunner 1, 2, 3, mortar crew, Kompanietrupp member, driver, coach driver etc.. etc..
This was the "Weiterführende Ausbildung" which included extensive training with the personal and operating weapon, group tactics, tactics within higher formations, cooperation with tanks, artillery etc.. etc..
Later in the war these things were often included in the basic training to make it shorter.
\Christoph
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UK Lightgunner
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With respect Christophe,i have tried to research this subject but my time is limited so i finally resorted to looking on the internet which has turned out to be a waste of time.
I come from a familly who served in HM Forces for the WHOLE of the 20th century including the inter war years so i do have a `little` inside knowledge
Regards from the UK
I come from a familly who served in HM Forces for the WHOLE of the 20th century including the inter war years so i do have a `little` inside knowledge
Regards from the UK
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Christoph Awender
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Well, as you see there is very little information in the net because the documents left are very hard to find. I am collecting information and documents for over ten years now and about training issues specifically for a couple of years and actual training schedules are extremely hard to come by. As I said I am working on this section for my site but it is a large project and takes time because it is not the only thing I am doing.
I cannot understand why the search in the internet was a waste of time because I gave you the information you asked for from original documents which you rejected as "I never heard". And if you are honest this is the same as "I don´t believe you" when you have no sources which actually tell you the opposite.
I think it is also understandable that I do not post all material I already have "just" for an request in a internet forum in which I can also answer the questions without posting hundreds of pages.
In my oppinion it is not relevant if your family served in HM Forces for 100 years when it comes to knowledge about training in the varuious stages of the Wehrmacht.
Just black on white information on original documents plus the additional information from my grandfathers, their brothers and other veterans can give you a picture of this comlicated topic. I offered you the essence of my research which you decided to reject.
I don´t really care but saying that your question haven ´t been answered or wouldn´t be answered is a little bit strange.
\Christoph
I cannot understand why the search in the internet was a waste of time because I gave you the information you asked for from original documents which you rejected as "I never heard". And if you are honest this is the same as "I don´t believe you" when you have no sources which actually tell you the opposite.
I think it is also understandable that I do not post all material I already have "just" for an request in a internet forum in which I can also answer the questions without posting hundreds of pages.
In my oppinion it is not relevant if your family served in HM Forces for 100 years when it comes to knowledge about training in the varuious stages of the Wehrmacht.
Just black on white information on original documents plus the additional information from my grandfathers, their brothers and other veterans can give you a picture of this comlicated topic. I offered you the essence of my research which you decided to reject.
I don´t really care but saying that your question haven ´t been answered or wouldn´t be answered is a little bit strange.
\Christoph
UK Lightgunner wrote:I`v never heard of Basic training only lasting 6 weeks,you`v learnt hardly anything in that time unless is it is contant weapon training perhaps and the only Army to call Basic training `Boot camp` is the Americans,no one in Europe`refers` it as so.
In canada it is nicknamed boot camp today.