May I add some words. On the side of Poland but in other mood then Orzel. It really is unfair to call these units "Polish". Only few would associate it with the country the units were formed, very few. Much more will associate it with the men who composed them. Does not it make a diffirence? Sometimes controversies arise when someone fails to notice how important are the accuracy and thoroughness with the words that are thrown at the world.
The answers given by Henrik Krog on sid guttridge questions were generally correct. Sonderdients were of German invention, commanded in German, acted on German command and interests and consisted of Germans (even if they were ex-Polish citiziens) who regarded themselves and were regarded by others as Germans. They had nothing common with Poles any longer and did not want to have (as Poles did not want to have anything common with them).
As for "Blue Police". It was not military formation. It was civilian. Following this way of thinking we should treat post-officers, hospitals personel, even milkmen as collaborationists. War may wage but people still living and some functions must be fuilfilled. The same was in Norway, France, Denmark (after 43). Do they all were quislings? The same was with police (was not there police in Denmark during the occupation?). They did not fight Polish Resistance. Truly saying, many of them proved to be ordinary scums, many were sentenced for jail after the war. But they were not a part of Nazi-machine. They were rather a part of Germans "ordnung". It, again, I think, makes a little diffirence.
Henrik - "Gotschenko" sounds indeed rather like Galizian name (I'd even say - it sounds like Ukrainian name). But, if the village (town?) was in western Prussia it originally could be something like "Gościnko", "Gościenko". These are names very often met in Poland (in English it means - hospitable or hospitality). I bet it was somewhere in Wielkopolska (Posen Province).
Selbstschutz in Poland
Moderator: George Lepre
So I see Jason has decided to stick to his guns and continue to spew forth his hateful lies. Despite of the fact that the majority of the people in the dsicussion agreed with me that calling VolksDeutsche Polish to be a total stretch and distortion of the truth. I speak to all who agree with me that calling ethnic german units POLISH to be a lie to post a reply as soon as possible. Discussing history is one thing hateful lies is a whole other.
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Vic Nicholas
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sid guttridge
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Orzel,
Vic is right.
Jason may or may not be mistaken on this issue (I happen to think he is mistaken) but to describe his position as a "lie" is to ascribe motives of deliberate falsification to him of which I see absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
You seem oblivious to the damage you are doing to Poland's reputation by your abrasive attitude in this debate. If you are typical of Poles at large, then readers of this thread are going to get the impression that it is virtually impossible to hold a reasoned, civil discussion with other Poles, even when they may well be right.
You are in danger of winning this particular battle but losing the wider war for Poland's national reputation for civility and reason.
Cheers,
Sid.
Vic is right.
Jason may or may not be mistaken on this issue (I happen to think he is mistaken) but to describe his position as a "lie" is to ascribe motives of deliberate falsification to him of which I see absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
You seem oblivious to the damage you are doing to Poland's reputation by your abrasive attitude in this debate. If you are typical of Poles at large, then readers of this thread are going to get the impression that it is virtually impossible to hold a reasoned, civil discussion with other Poles, even when they may well be right.
You are in danger of winning this particular battle but losing the wider war for Poland's national reputation for civility and reason.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Norman aus Lemberg
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Hi to all!
This topic cought my attention so I descided to put some light on the "polish question".
1. Despite Orzels remarks (or lack of manners) there was plenty of Polish collaboration. Out of 7 Blue-police regiments in Galicia, one is clearly marked as "polish" - that is made up of ethnic Poles and not Volksd. Besides that - I was reading up on some memuars from General Gouvernment written by Ukrainian member of Central Committee. He mentiones interesting fact; the moment Germans announced self government - great numbers of poles began to sign up as Volksd. in order to get better postions or food stamps. Sounds like collaboration to me.
2. National minorities in Poland. YOU Orzel might not consider them as poles, but the Interwar Polish Gov. tought the opposite. In fact there was a whole program to polonize all those German and Ukrainian minorities. As for you calling them traitors - its funny since, Interwar poland is well known for its shouvenism and opression of minorities.
3. No members of 14th div. SS Galicia commited any crimes against poles in one point or another. Royal Commision on Warcrimes TWICE found them not guilty - this is a well known fact
This topic cought my attention so I descided to put some light on the "polish question".
1. Despite Orzels remarks (or lack of manners) there was plenty of Polish collaboration. Out of 7 Blue-police regiments in Galicia, one is clearly marked as "polish" - that is made up of ethnic Poles and not Volksd. Besides that - I was reading up on some memuars from General Gouvernment written by Ukrainian member of Central Committee. He mentiones interesting fact; the moment Germans announced self government - great numbers of poles began to sign up as Volksd. in order to get better postions or food stamps. Sounds like collaboration to me.
2. National minorities in Poland. YOU Orzel might not consider them as poles, but the Interwar Polish Gov. tought the opposite. In fact there was a whole program to polonize all those German and Ukrainian minorities. As for you calling them traitors - its funny since, Interwar poland is well known for its shouvenism and opression of minorities.
3. No members of 14th div. SS Galicia commited any crimes against poles in one point or another. Royal Commision on Warcrimes TWICE found them not guilty - this is a well known fact
Dear Sid, I highly respect you and your opinions, however to be mistaken is alright but to be mistaken be corrected and nonetheless stick to one's false ideas what is that? As far as you Norman aus Lemberg, I assume you have sentimental ties to the Ukraine? I dont think the Ukrainians should have anything to say on the topic of collaboration or for that matter genocide? After all does the Wolyn massacre ring any bells? As far as Polish and Non-Polish...well Poland has always been a mutliethnic country. A fact which has been often a blessing and often a curse. However to call units made up of ethnic Germans from Poland to be Polish Combat/Security Units is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. The facts are simple Poland was the first country to stand up to both Nazi and Soviet aggression. We paid a terrible price for this to both occupants. It is not Polands fault that Germans residing in Poland decided to collaborate with the Germans, just like the Ukrainians or ByeloRussians worked for the Soviets. This fact is further proven by the fact that these so-called "Polish Units" were used against Ethnic Poles. Such as in Poznan, Gdansk and Slask by the Germans and in Lwow, Przemysl, Grodno and Wolyn by the Ukrainians for the Soviets. I admit that my comments at times were harsh and crude, I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings, however noone seems to have mentioned that perhaps my feelings were also hurt by these false accusations of the Polish nation. To a nation which sacrificed so much on the altar of freedom it is a gross insult to accuse us of actually collaroborating with our enemies.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Norman,
I am afraid that the record of Ukrainians and 14th Galizien Division against the Poles is not quite as clean as you believe.
Slovak troops operating in southern Galicia in July 1941 were already reporting privately in unit diaries of the damage Ukrainian militia armed by the Germans and Hungarians were doing to the security situation in the area in 1941 as a result of persecution of both Poles and Jews. These militias later became better organised as police battalions, and later still these supplied the manpower for the 14th Waffen-SS Galizien Division.
During its period of formation the 14th Galizien Division also took part in Operation Werewolf (27 June 1943) in the Zamosc area. The aim of the operation was to drive out the local Polish partisans and civilians so that the area could be resettled by Germans as "Himmlerstadt".
I am no specialist on the Waffen-SS but I have come across these two incidences in my own research on other subjects. It would be an unlikely coincidence if they were the only cases.
There are also questions of motive and opportunity. The Poles, Czechoslovaks and Romanians had all tried to suppress Ukrainian nationalism in Galicia, Ruthenia and Bucovina between the wars with varying degrees of severity and there was plenty of reason for Ukrainian resentment in the area. It would not be very suprising if there were what some Ukrainians would regard as reprisals against Poles once the Germans had allowed them to rearm.
Cheers,
Sid.
I am afraid that the record of Ukrainians and 14th Galizien Division against the Poles is not quite as clean as you believe.
Slovak troops operating in southern Galicia in July 1941 were already reporting privately in unit diaries of the damage Ukrainian militia armed by the Germans and Hungarians were doing to the security situation in the area in 1941 as a result of persecution of both Poles and Jews. These militias later became better organised as police battalions, and later still these supplied the manpower for the 14th Waffen-SS Galizien Division.
During its period of formation the 14th Galizien Division also took part in Operation Werewolf (27 June 1943) in the Zamosc area. The aim of the operation was to drive out the local Polish partisans and civilians so that the area could be resettled by Germans as "Himmlerstadt".
I am no specialist on the Waffen-SS but I have come across these two incidences in my own research on other subjects. It would be an unlikely coincidence if they were the only cases.
There are also questions of motive and opportunity. The Poles, Czechoslovaks and Romanians had all tried to suppress Ukrainian nationalism in Galicia, Ruthenia and Bucovina between the wars with varying degrees of severity and there was plenty of reason for Ukrainian resentment in the area. It would not be very suprising if there were what some Ukrainians would regard as reprisals against Poles once the Germans had allowed them to rearm.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Norman aus Lemberg
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Orzel
1. Wolyn' "masacre" has nothing to do with the topic of collaboration. I believe we were taling about Polish collaboration. However if you are so eager to hear this; YES there was ahniliation of Poles in Norhtern Ukraine, but you should also mention few other points:
a. this was revengel for Pacification of Ukrainians in the 30's.
b. most of poles in the region were collonists which were shipped from Central Poland, as plans for polonization of the region (similarly to Galicia)
c. this was also reprisal for attacks by Polish partizans (both AK and the Reds) on Ukrainian villages.
2."As far as Polish and Non-Polish...well Poland has always been a mutliethnic country"
- You still avoid the issue of forcefull polonization.
- Also, you avoid the issue of great numbers of poles writing themselves as Volksd. in order to get beter slice of life.
3."The facts are simple Poland was the first country to stand up to both Nazi and Soviet aggression."
- Well if you really want to get picky picky - Karpatho Ukraine was the first to go, when it was annexed by the Axis Hungarians - but no one made any fuss about the issue. In fact - Poles collaborated with the Hungarians on the theme.
Hi Sid,
I did not say that there was no crimes at all. Ofcourse they were! But - units commiting crimes in 1941 - don't really count as SS Galicia, which was formed in 43 (even if some of the members ended up in division).
For the operation that you mention - 4th and 5th SS regiments of Galicia were used. But (this jumps into Huta Pieniacka issue) - after the willage was taken, the regiments moved out and German police batallions finished the work.
"
There are also questions of motive and opportunity. The Poles, Czechoslovaks and Romanians had all tried to suppress Ukrainian
nationalism in Galicia, Ruthenia and Bucovina between the wars with varying degrees of severity and there was plenty of reason for
Ukrainian resentment in the area. It would not be very suprising if there were what some Ukrainians would regard as reprisals against
Poles once the Germans had allowed them to rearm. "
- Very true, but this would have to be the partizan, police or Schuma units, but not the division. If you read accounts on divisional stay in Slovakia - the soldiers had very friendly relations with the Slovaks.
1. Wolyn' "masacre" has nothing to do with the topic of collaboration. I believe we were taling about Polish collaboration. However if you are so eager to hear this; YES there was ahniliation of Poles in Norhtern Ukraine, but you should also mention few other points:
a. this was revengel for Pacification of Ukrainians in the 30's.
b. most of poles in the region were collonists which were shipped from Central Poland, as plans for polonization of the region (similarly to Galicia)
c. this was also reprisal for attacks by Polish partizans (both AK and the Reds) on Ukrainian villages.
2."As far as Polish and Non-Polish...well Poland has always been a mutliethnic country"
- You still avoid the issue of forcefull polonization.
- Also, you avoid the issue of great numbers of poles writing themselves as Volksd. in order to get beter slice of life.
3."The facts are simple Poland was the first country to stand up to both Nazi and Soviet aggression."
- Well if you really want to get picky picky - Karpatho Ukraine was the first to go, when it was annexed by the Axis Hungarians - but no one made any fuss about the issue. In fact - Poles collaborated with the Hungarians on the theme.
Hi Sid,
I did not say that there was no crimes at all. Ofcourse they were! But - units commiting crimes in 1941 - don't really count as SS Galicia, which was formed in 43 (even if some of the members ended up in division).
For the operation that you mention - 4th and 5th SS regiments of Galicia were used. But (this jumps into Huta Pieniacka issue) - after the willage was taken, the regiments moved out and German police batallions finished the work.
"
There are also questions of motive and opportunity. The Poles, Czechoslovaks and Romanians had all tried to suppress Ukrainian
nationalism in Galicia, Ruthenia and Bucovina between the wars with varying degrees of severity and there was plenty of reason for
Ukrainian resentment in the area. It would not be very suprising if there were what some Ukrainians would regard as reprisals against
Poles once the Germans had allowed them to rearm. "
- Very true, but this would have to be the partizan, police or Schuma units, but not the division. If you read accounts on divisional stay in Slovakia - the soldiers had very friendly relations with the Slovaks.
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sid guttridge
- on "time out"
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- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Norman,
I found that the Ukrainians of th Galizien Division did, indeed, have good relations with the Slovak civilians they were billeted on in late 1944 and that the motivation to tackle Slovak partisans came almost entirely from the division's German cadre.
However, I think it somewhat artificial to make the creation of the Galizien division a cut off point. There was a continuous evolution from disorganised Ukrainian militias through SS police battalions to the creation of the division. However, if one accepts that cut off point, there still remain some questions about the division's activities before it was sent to the front, during which time it engaged in a number of security operations of which Operation Werewolf was apparently only the largest.
It is quite often put forward on Feldgrau that one Waffen-SS division or another had a clean record and that they were "only soldiers like any other soldiers". However, almost inevitably incidents surface. The latest is a thread still discussing the 5th Wiking Division, in which Finns serving with the formation recorded several massacres of prisoners. It seems to be the case that few, if any, major Waffen-SS formations are entirely free of these incidents. It would be very surprising if 14th Galizien Division escaped the prevailing Waffen-SS ethos entirely, especially in a theatre where the enemy was often not a signatory of the Geneva convention.
Anyway, as I said before, I am not really an expert on 14th Galizien Division, so I will sit back and watch how this debate develops.
Cheers,
Sid.
I found that the Ukrainians of th Galizien Division did, indeed, have good relations with the Slovak civilians they were billeted on in late 1944 and that the motivation to tackle Slovak partisans came almost entirely from the division's German cadre.
However, I think it somewhat artificial to make the creation of the Galizien division a cut off point. There was a continuous evolution from disorganised Ukrainian militias through SS police battalions to the creation of the division. However, if one accepts that cut off point, there still remain some questions about the division's activities before it was sent to the front, during which time it engaged in a number of security operations of which Operation Werewolf was apparently only the largest.
It is quite often put forward on Feldgrau that one Waffen-SS division or another had a clean record and that they were "only soldiers like any other soldiers". However, almost inevitably incidents surface. The latest is a thread still discussing the 5th Wiking Division, in which Finns serving with the formation recorded several massacres of prisoners. It seems to be the case that few, if any, major Waffen-SS formations are entirely free of these incidents. It would be very surprising if 14th Galizien Division escaped the prevailing Waffen-SS ethos entirely, especially in a theatre where the enemy was often not a signatory of the Geneva convention.
Anyway, as I said before, I am not really an expert on 14th Galizien Division, so I will sit back and watch how this debate develops.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Henrik Krog
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Hi Sid
I finally found something on how the four different German "Peoples Lists" (Volkslisten) were defined. So far only hard numbers for the region around Kulm/Chelmno.
http://www.andreas-prause.de/volksliste.html
I am pretty sure, that I somewhere saw the number of "Volksdeutsche" in the parts of Poland merged with Germany in 1939 as being around some 3,5 million. A pretty big number, as the last prewar Polish census (1931) only listed some 750.000 Germans. Of course, that number was probably under-reported, but still.....even the pre-WWI German census takers couldnt find that many Germans in the region.
I know I have seen the numbers around here somewhere. It is just a question of time before I find them....
Henrik
I finally found something on how the four different German "Peoples Lists" (Volkslisten) were defined. So far only hard numbers for the region around Kulm/Chelmno.
http://www.andreas-prause.de/volksliste.html
I am pretty sure, that I somewhere saw the number of "Volksdeutsche" in the parts of Poland merged with Germany in 1939 as being around some 3,5 million. A pretty big number, as the last prewar Polish census (1931) only listed some 750.000 Germans. Of course, that number was probably under-reported, but still.....even the pre-WWI German census takers couldnt find that many Germans in the region.
I know I have seen the numbers around here somewhere. It is just a question of time before I find them....
Henrik
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Vic Nicholas
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- Location: Melbourne AUSTRALIA
Henryk, there is a simple human explanation to the disparity in your figures of ethnic Germans in Polish territory.
Human nature being what it is and national borders and pockets of ethnic minorities here, there and everywhere creates the situation where people may have several ancestries mixed together.
In this case a LARGE minority of Poles have some German ancestry in their veins.
What does this do?
Well, while living in a Polish state, especially one that was lax on minority rights in the 1930's they would happily highlight the Polish part of their ancestry and live life without fuss.
However, when the Wehrmacht rolled through town signalling the beginning of a new, more dangerous tyranny, but in an inverted sense....it is only natural that many, many Poles were only too eager to dredge up any German ancestry that they may have had (however tenuous) to survive those scary times and receive small favours by way of food ration tickets etc.
I would not even be suprised if a very small proportion of Poles may even have "invented" a distant German ancestry for reasons of survival....this is natural and happens all the time.
National and ethnic self conciousness can be very fluid in Eastern and Southern Europe.
Before people pooh, pooh my assertion, keep this in mind:
Germans are reknown for maintaining their Germaness no matter where they may be found in Europe. From the Volga settlements in Russia to the Southern Tyrol in Italy, Germans retain a sense of being German over and above their citizenship of their resident state (Especially around WW2).
The Germans of Alsace-Lorraine have been the subject of conjecture between France and Germany for 130 years.
They LOOK German.
They SPEAK German.
The have German SURNAMES.
They are CULTURALLY German.
Yet despite all this, they consider themselves FRENCH?!?
This is their self determination.
Under the UN Charter of 1948, their self-identification as Frenchmen must be respected, even if it is completely illogical. "I think - thereore I am" as the saying goes.
Many of them have risen to the highest echelons of French society (Marshall Foch Commander of the French army in WW1 is but one example of many)....so they evidently were not descriminated in any way.
More-over, unless someone can correct me here, I do not believe the French took any reprisals against this German minority at the end of WW2 simply because they are clearly of German descent.
I have rambled on way too long....I hope I haven't bored anyone with the point I am making.
Vic Nicholas
Human nature being what it is and national borders and pockets of ethnic minorities here, there and everywhere creates the situation where people may have several ancestries mixed together.
In this case a LARGE minority of Poles have some German ancestry in their veins.
What does this do?
Well, while living in a Polish state, especially one that was lax on minority rights in the 1930's they would happily highlight the Polish part of their ancestry and live life without fuss.
However, when the Wehrmacht rolled through town signalling the beginning of a new, more dangerous tyranny, but in an inverted sense....it is only natural that many, many Poles were only too eager to dredge up any German ancestry that they may have had (however tenuous) to survive those scary times and receive small favours by way of food ration tickets etc.
I would not even be suprised if a very small proportion of Poles may even have "invented" a distant German ancestry for reasons of survival....this is natural and happens all the time.
National and ethnic self conciousness can be very fluid in Eastern and Southern Europe.
Before people pooh, pooh my assertion, keep this in mind:
Germans are reknown for maintaining their Germaness no matter where they may be found in Europe. From the Volga settlements in Russia to the Southern Tyrol in Italy, Germans retain a sense of being German over and above their citizenship of their resident state (Especially around WW2).
The Germans of Alsace-Lorraine have been the subject of conjecture between France and Germany for 130 years.
They LOOK German.
They SPEAK German.
The have German SURNAMES.
They are CULTURALLY German.
Yet despite all this, they consider themselves FRENCH?!?
This is their self determination.
Under the UN Charter of 1948, their self-identification as Frenchmen must be respected, even if it is completely illogical. "I think - thereore I am" as the saying goes.
Many of them have risen to the highest echelons of French society (Marshall Foch Commander of the French army in WW1 is but one example of many)....so they evidently were not descriminated in any way.
More-over, unless someone can correct me here, I do not believe the French took any reprisals against this German minority at the end of WW2 simply because they are clearly of German descent.
I have rambled on way too long....I hope I haven't bored anyone with the point I am making.
Vic Nicholas
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Norman aus Lemberg
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On the subject - Germans also planned to have General-Gouvernment become part of the Gross Deutsche Reich. That is why, they were more than happy to pick out as many "germans" from the natives as possible. From the same memuars of Kost Pankivsky (member of Central Ukrainian Committe) "When declaring your Volksd. status, you simply had to mention that you had a german grandmother, or speak few words in German, or simply declare that you always felt German. This was enough to be accepted". No wonder so many poles siezed this as an opportunity to work with the Germans.
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sid guttridge
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sid guttridge
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Hi Vic,
I think you make a lot of sense. There are undoubtedly large numbers of people in pre-war Poland (and Germany) of mixed ancestry who had mixed potential loyalties.
However, I do not think the population of Alsace or Lorraine has ever been allowed to express its right to self determination. The two territories have been passed back and forth between the central governments of the two states for several centuries without a plebiscite ever being held on which country they wanted to be in.
Cheers,
Sid.
I think you make a lot of sense. There are undoubtedly large numbers of people in pre-war Poland (and Germany) of mixed ancestry who had mixed potential loyalties.
However, I do not think the population of Alsace or Lorraine has ever been allowed to express its right to self determination. The two territories have been passed back and forth between the central governments of the two states for several centuries without a plebiscite ever being held on which country they wanted to be in.
Cheers,
Sid.
I have recently read an article in Polish press. It was about Bruno Schultz (1882-1942). He was an artist, his paintigs were famous, at least in Poland, Russia, and Ukraina. But the last of his paintings were painted on the wall by the order of german officer (F.Landau) who, eventually condemned the painter for death (in Majdanek). The paints were made for Germans requirements. Did the author be a collaborinist? He was gazed in the lager.