Annalie is right! Give it a rest. This is not a Historical Fact Asylum. It's just a website for people with common interests. History is made up of some facts,some lies, some opinions, etc. You'r "beating a dead horse".
Georg
Waffen SS criminal organizations?
Hi,
What exactly did Sid say wrong? That the Waffen-SS were a bit brutal?
PaulJ's thread about why the Waffen-SS are so hyped up all the time is very quiet...mabye the majority of people here are a bit blinded by the lights?
Georg - History is made up from facts, and nothing else. It would be pointless to study otherwise, and we could just insert 'lies' and 'opinions' to suit.
Cheers,
What exactly did Sid say wrong? That the Waffen-SS were a bit brutal?
PaulJ's thread about why the Waffen-SS are so hyped up all the time is very quiet...mabye the majority of people here are a bit blinded by the lights?
Georg - History is made up from facts, and nothing else. It would be pointless to study otherwise, and we could just insert 'lies' and 'opinions' to suit.
Cheers,
Jock
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mtranierman
- New Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:23 pm
SS and Heer atrocities
Sid is accurate in his description of the classification of the SS at Nuremburg. That description can be found in Nuremburg by J. Persico
That ruling should help make it clear that behavior of individuals and units is a determining factor in making judgements. It also leads to a logical next step --avoid such sweeping (and false) generalizations such as "all Waffen SS troops were criminasl" or "all Heer troops were well disciplined." The facts are otherwise.
Further, distinctions should be made betweeen actions by individuals or small groups of troops, units operating under orders by an officers, or actions made under general authority issued by the highest levels of command such as the infamous "commando" "reprisal" and "commisar" orders issued by OKW.
For example, please see an excellent recent book by Alexander Rossino. Rossino's main point is that the invasion of Poland set precedents for violations of international rules of warfare that presaged the abominal behaivor in the USSR by both Heer and Waffen SS troops.
The Rossino book discusses at length the psychology of the Heer troops in Poland who had been fed a steady diet of propaganda about Poles being inferior, and including publicization of Poles mistreating ethnic Germans -- some of which was true -- in Poland.
Rossino cites examples of atrocities commited by Heer troops in the 10th, 17th and 19th infantry divisions as well as the 4th Pz. and examples of Heer and SS cooperation.
Veritas
His discussions about reprisals against civilians is very thought provoking in that there is precedent throughout the history of warfare for how to respond to attacks on troops by irregular, non-uniformed locals.
That ruling should help make it clear that behavior of individuals and units is a determining factor in making judgements. It also leads to a logical next step --avoid such sweeping (and false) generalizations such as "all Waffen SS troops were criminasl" or "all Heer troops were well disciplined." The facts are otherwise.
Further, distinctions should be made betweeen actions by individuals or small groups of troops, units operating under orders by an officers, or actions made under general authority issued by the highest levels of command such as the infamous "commando" "reprisal" and "commisar" orders issued by OKW.
For example, please see an excellent recent book by Alexander Rossino. Rossino's main point is that the invasion of Poland set precedents for violations of international rules of warfare that presaged the abominal behaivor in the USSR by both Heer and Waffen SS troops.
The Rossino book discusses at length the psychology of the Heer troops in Poland who had been fed a steady diet of propaganda about Poles being inferior, and including publicization of Poles mistreating ethnic Germans -- some of which was true -- in Poland.
Rossino cites examples of atrocities commited by Heer troops in the 10th, 17th and 19th infantry divisions as well as the 4th Pz. and examples of Heer and SS cooperation.
Veritas
His discussions about reprisals against civilians is very thought provoking in that there is precedent throughout the history of warfare for how to respond to attacks on troops by irregular, non-uniformed locals.
veritas
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mtranierman
- New Member
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- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:23 pm
Rossino
ISBN 0-7006 1234-3 University Press of Kansas, 2003. As a side note, the book includes a series of photos of a German army unit abusing Jewish Poles in which Leni Riefenstahl is depicted as an obviously distraught witness.
verdad
verdad
veritas
Spot on Jock!
But as my father told me they turned kids like the luftwaffe helfer into SS, by letting them swear the oath (Vergatterung) and gave them armpatches. And then told them that the allied shot SS-soldiers as they where political soldiers, and thus illegal. But at at least one time in 1945 he saw other teen comrades comming back from the American 5th army, being relised in just their underwear. From that moment he was not so sure they where to be shot if captured.
As for the holocoust (ie the murder of millions of jews in four polish camps), one thing that strikes me is that there was not so many Germans involved. Three people decided it, another 18 planned it and some 80 officers and guards with the help of a couple of thousand ukranian and balts commited the worst autrocity of our time. Now I must admit that I do not count in the on the field units that operated at the front, as I do not know much about them. But I understand that it was not a significant part of the organization.
But as I also understand most SS-officers, and anyone else for that matter, where disgusted when told about the holocust. They wanted to kick out the jews and any other forereigner for that matter but not murder them in the brutal way it was done. What I am trying to say is even if they where not angels, they did not join the party or SS because they wanted to kill civillians. Also notable is that german SS-staff that worked in the camps where there on free will, no one was forced to do it. There was much concern in the organization about the mental health of those who commited the crimes.
Sorry if I am out of bounds, just take my posting out. But it is hard to not talk about it as it put such an stigma on both SS, the german history and all germans.
But as my father told me they turned kids like the luftwaffe helfer into SS, by letting them swear the oath (Vergatterung) and gave them armpatches. And then told them that the allied shot SS-soldiers as they where political soldiers, and thus illegal. But at at least one time in 1945 he saw other teen comrades comming back from the American 5th army, being relised in just their underwear. From that moment he was not so sure they where to be shot if captured.
As for the holocoust (ie the murder of millions of jews in four polish camps), one thing that strikes me is that there was not so many Germans involved. Three people decided it, another 18 planned it and some 80 officers and guards with the help of a couple of thousand ukranian and balts commited the worst autrocity of our time. Now I must admit that I do not count in the on the field units that operated at the front, as I do not know much about them. But I understand that it was not a significant part of the organization.
But as I also understand most SS-officers, and anyone else for that matter, where disgusted when told about the holocust. They wanted to kick out the jews and any other forereigner for that matter but not murder them in the brutal way it was done. What I am trying to say is even if they where not angels, they did not join the party or SS because they wanted to kill civillians. Also notable is that german SS-staff that worked in the camps where there on free will, no one was forced to do it. There was much concern in the organization about the mental health of those who commited the crimes.
Sorry if I am out of bounds, just take my posting out. But it is hard to not talk about it as it put such an stigma on both SS, the german history and all germans.
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sid guttridge
- on "time out"
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- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Anton,
It is no secret that there certainly were men of many other nationalities involved in the execution of the "Holocaust". However, they did so as individuals wearing Nazi German uniform and taking Nazi German pay.
The fact remains that the extermination campaign was Nazi German-conceived and Nazi German-directed. That is why the "Holocaust" is rightly seen as an essentially Nazi German phenomenon.
Subtract the Nazi German element and all you have left is a few tens of thousands of uncoordinated, non-German, anti-semitic, Neanderthal thugs spread all across eastern Europe and incapable of conceiving, let alone organising, the killing of people on the scale of the industrial scale of the "Holocaust".
Cheers,
Sid.
It is no secret that there certainly were men of many other nationalities involved in the execution of the "Holocaust". However, they did so as individuals wearing Nazi German uniform and taking Nazi German pay.
The fact remains that the extermination campaign was Nazi German-conceived and Nazi German-directed. That is why the "Holocaust" is rightly seen as an essentially Nazi German phenomenon.
Subtract the Nazi German element and all you have left is a few tens of thousands of uncoordinated, non-German, anti-semitic, Neanderthal thugs spread all across eastern Europe and incapable of conceiving, let alone organising, the killing of people on the scale of the industrial scale of the "Holocaust".
Cheers,
Sid.
Criminal
Hi Folks ! I'm back again. Was out of the running for a little, because my wife had sextuple (6) bypasses surgery. So I had other things on my mind than any forum. Got to play Sanitäter / Bruder again; amazing how many skills even outdated ones come back when you need them.
So now for the present: As an ex-criminal by association
(waffen SS veteran) I see we are still doing the same thing. I could have been a year absent, and still the same arguments of lack thereof would keep going. Amazing how well armchair generals know how to fight a war fair and friendly. Today I turned 78 (happy birthday to me 
) and I think I have enough of getting annoyed, by the lava lamp syndrome.
Which is, the bubble goes up, does not burst , but goes down again, and . . next it goes up again, ad in absurdum.
Greetings ! Peace ! H.N.
So now for the present: As an ex-criminal by association
(waffen SS veteran) I see we are still doing the same thing. I could have been a year absent, and still the same arguments of lack thereof would keep going. Amazing how well armchair generals know how to fight a war fair and friendly. Today I turned 78 (happy birthday to me ) and I think I have enough of getting annoyed, by the lava lamp syndrome.Which is, the bubble goes up, does not burst , but goes down again, and . . next it goes up again, ad in absurdum.
Greetings ! Peace ! H.N.
not just a german thing
The problem with judging the Waffen SS is that war crimes were carried out by all armies. British, American and to a much greater extent the soviet forces raped, murdered and pillaged there way through Germany.
The Western allies were perhaps not as prolific in there crimes but they did occur (such is the nature of war, look at the situation in Irak)
The field execution of POWs is something that is well documented on all sides. However, one interesting fact is that Hitler ordered members of the British Commandoes to be summarily executed upon capture.
The Western allies were perhaps not as prolific in there crimes but they did occur (such is the nature of war, look at the situation in Irak)
The field execution of POWs is something that is well documented on all sides. However, one interesting fact is that Hitler ordered members of the British Commandoes to be summarily executed upon capture.
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mtranierman
- New Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:23 pm
Haen:
I, for one, am trying to make the point that, consistent with the Nuremburg ruling, each individual is innocent until proven guilty. Please see my earlier posting.
I am trying to make the point that gross generalizations such as all SS troops were guilty of atrocities or all Heer troops were innocent of such atrocities are worse than wrong, they are unfair.
Nor will you see my deny that atrocities are committed by all sides in war. War is not neat and tidy, nor is a always a matter of black and white choices.
Nonetheless, it is natural that members are interesting in learing more about the SS and all of its disparate elements. The complexity of the SS in and of itself is part of the reason for so much confusion about it among the general public.
Anton:
You raise a good question about "field units" and another about participation.
"As for the holocoust (ie the murder of millions of jews in four polish camps), one thing that strikes me is that there was not so many Germans involved. Three people decided it, another 18 planned it and some 80 officers and guards with the help of a couple of thousand ukranian and balts commited the worst autrocity of our time. Now I must admit that I do not count in the on the field units that operated at the front, as I do not know much about them. But I understand that it was not a significant part of the organization."
Please allow me to amplify. Many people who have not spent long years of research as I have on these matters naturally focus on the more incredibly horrifying "extermination camps," Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, and Belzec and Majdanek. But there were hundreds of other camps where jewish, gypsy, political prisoners, POWs and civilians died. Then there were the field operations you noted. The camps accounted for approximately four million jewish deaths. Nearly two million died in other ways, mostly at the hands of the einzatz kommandos made up primarily of security police and order police (thousands of troops) under the RHSA in eastern poland and the USSR.
Because of the extensive size of the camps, the ghetto system used until the extermination camps were all operational, and the field operations, the inescapable conclusion is that thousands of germans were involved in the holocaust, as were poles, balts, ukrainians and others.
Those involved ranged from various elements of the RSHA, Reich Security Main Administration, including police and SS, as well as civilians (not least of which were the Reichsbann workers helping keeping the trains runnning to the camps), and Heer and Luftwaffe personnel.
Unfortunately thousands of Germans played roles in the holocaust, not just a few.
Regards
verite'
I, for one, am trying to make the point that, consistent with the Nuremburg ruling, each individual is innocent until proven guilty. Please see my earlier posting.
I am trying to make the point that gross generalizations such as all SS troops were guilty of atrocities or all Heer troops were innocent of such atrocities are worse than wrong, they are unfair.
Nor will you see my deny that atrocities are committed by all sides in war. War is not neat and tidy, nor is a always a matter of black and white choices.
Nonetheless, it is natural that members are interesting in learing more about the SS and all of its disparate elements. The complexity of the SS in and of itself is part of the reason for so much confusion about it among the general public.
Anton:
You raise a good question about "field units" and another about participation.
"As for the holocoust (ie the murder of millions of jews in four polish camps), one thing that strikes me is that there was not so many Germans involved. Three people decided it, another 18 planned it and some 80 officers and guards with the help of a couple of thousand ukranian and balts commited the worst autrocity of our time. Now I must admit that I do not count in the on the field units that operated at the front, as I do not know much about them. But I understand that it was not a significant part of the organization."
Please allow me to amplify. Many people who have not spent long years of research as I have on these matters naturally focus on the more incredibly horrifying "extermination camps," Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, and Belzec and Majdanek. But there were hundreds of other camps where jewish, gypsy, political prisoners, POWs and civilians died. Then there were the field operations you noted. The camps accounted for approximately four million jewish deaths. Nearly two million died in other ways, mostly at the hands of the einzatz kommandos made up primarily of security police and order police (thousands of troops) under the RHSA in eastern poland and the USSR.
Because of the extensive size of the camps, the ghetto system used until the extermination camps were all operational, and the field operations, the inescapable conclusion is that thousands of germans were involved in the holocaust, as were poles, balts, ukrainians and others.
Those involved ranged from various elements of the RSHA, Reich Security Main Administration, including police and SS, as well as civilians (not least of which were the Reichsbann workers helping keeping the trains runnning to the camps), and Heer and Luftwaffe personnel.
Unfortunately thousands of Germans played roles in the holocaust, not just a few.
Regards
verite'
veritas
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sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Muumin,
I don't think that there is any "problem with judging the Waffen-SS because warcrimes were carried out by all other armies".
If other armies committed war crimes they, too, should be held accountable. But whether they are or they aren't, it doesn't in any way lessen the justification for pursuing charges against the Waffen-SS.
Cheers,
Sid.
I don't think that there is any "problem with judging the Waffen-SS because warcrimes were carried out by all other armies".
If other armies committed war crimes they, too, should be held accountable. But whether they are or they aren't, it doesn't in any way lessen the justification for pursuing charges against the Waffen-SS.
Cheers,
Sid.
Wuzz we or wuzzn't we ?
Hi all. First of all the Nurnberg trials were a farce !!!!! The people tried , were considered guilty until proven innocent. Second, the reason the Waffen SS was singled out was because the Soviets dominated the procedings and they had made up their minds to blame everything on the W.SS; possibly to hide their own atrocities. Third, also the Western allies had some (actually quite a few) skeletons in their closets, that needed to be overshadowed by the BAD BAD W.SS.
Were there war criminals in our ranks ? Yes there were. Were All of us war criminals ????? For Peets sake get your head out of the sand and study history with an open mind.
Now I am really p..sed off . Oh well. Live long and prosper. HN.
Second, the reason the Waffen SS was singled out was because the Soviets dominated the procedings and they had made up their minds to blame everything on the W.SS; possibly to hide their own atrocities. Third, also the Western allies had some (actually quite a few) skeletons in their closets, that needed to be overshadowed by the BAD BAD W.SS. Were there war criminals in our ranks ? Yes there were. Were All of us war criminals ????? For Peets sake get your head out of the sand and study history with an open mind.
Now I am really p..sed off
. Oh well. Live long and prosper. HN.-
fknorr
Sid, do you also want the Allies to be the said Judge, Jury and defense council...that is what happened, Allied Judges, allied prosecuters, allied defense attorneys, etc...boy that seems fair?!?!?!sid guttridge wrote:Hi Muumin,
I don't think that there is any "problem with judging the Waffen-SS because warcrimes were carried out by all other armies".
If other armies committed war crimes they, too, should be held accountable. But whether they are or they aren't, it doesn't in any way lessen the justification for pursuing charges against the Waffen-SS.
Cheers,
Sid.
Kurt Meyer actually had as his judge the General commanding the unit that his men were accused of committing crimes against...another that seems fair.
You also mentioned earlier in this thread (or elluded to) I believe that it was some sort of Nazi conspiracy to commit these acts...I know this is a Waffen-SS thread but did you know that at Bergen Belsen, which was in operation for several years, with hundreds (thousands?) of camp guards only about 12 were ever convicted of any type of crime? I believe several of these twelve were actually found guilt because they had committed some acts at Aushwitz before it closed. If this was some sort of grand Nazi ideology that permeated every member of the German population would you not think there would have been more criminals?
I am not trying to side w/the Germans or diminish in any way the crimes that were committed but as Haen said, lets look at history without being clouded by the BS that has been fed to us for 60 years.
Haen was also right in that the Allies had MANY reasons to shift the blame.
Lets seek the truth!