Help researching PzAbt 509, associated overcoat

[JRSCline]

Hello Kameraden!

I'm new at Feldgrau; if there was a place for newbie intros I missed it, so I'll summarize now: am a U.S. captain and company commander in Heidelberg, DE. Am more of a Roman army student, but have always been fascinated by WWII German topics.

While on a trip to Berlin recently, I decided to try investing in some WWII militaria, and I think I may have come up with a winner, but I know little about the context and can only guess at the authenticity, aside from the dealer's protestations.

The item in question is a summer-weight overcoat, allegedly SS Panzer type, in feldgrau with board epaulettes, light grey with two pips, pink Panzer waffenfarbe piping, and three gold numerals ("509") on each shoulder.

Even with my inexperienced eye, the coat looks exceptionally well-preserved. I could gather little info about the provenance, since the dealer's English and my German were not highly compatible.

Aside from the above, she did say that the owner died and the family brought the coat to sell. I paid $500 for it and she claimed it would fetch 2-3 times that price from a collector in the U.S. I hope I haven't been foolish to buy it.

From my initial browsing here, I see there was indeed an SS Panzer formation numbered 509, equipped with Tigers and King Tigers, that fought on the Eastern Front.

Can anyone share more about this unit?

What sources are available for further research elsewhere?

What rank (I assume the SS equivalent of a Oberleutnant?) is indicated by two pips?

And based upon my description of the coat itself, does it have the "right" epaulettes? There is no other identifying insignia on the coat. Is this what the dealer said it is? How can I tell if it's the genuine article?

Any guesses on valuation?

Kudos on a great professional site! Thanks in advance for all help.

Cheers,
CPT Jenny Cline
Heidelberg

[xavier]

sorry, I can't help you with the outfit, but regarding roman armies, please try to contact Thersites, a member of this forum...you will be interested, his special area of research are weapons of that era and more...

regards

Xavier

[JRSCline]

Thanks about that. If he reads this, he's welcome to visit Roman Army Talk, which I founded and may I say is perhaps the premier discussion group of the topic: http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk

Now back to the topic at hand...

Having done further research online at various sites, it seems that the Berlin dealer (whose husband is actually the proprietor evidently) was wrong about the SS association of the "509."

The sPzAbt 509 was actually a Heer formation, from what I'm reading. Only the 100-series formations were Waffen-SS. Correct?

Anyway, I'll take some photos of the coat later on and post them for further review. I'm quite curious to see what the membership thinks.

Oh, and I guess two pips indicate a Hauptmann, not an Oberleutnant. However, it is worth noting that the backing on the boards are black. The silver braid is not shiny but subdued, and frankly looks a bit fieldworn.

I'm guessing that since the boards have the metal numerals this was an early war coat, although the 509th was formed in 1943. It is curious that the numerals "50" are more tarnished than the "9" on both boards. Any theories?

How many officers of Hauptmann rank would have been in the PzAbt 509?

Cheers
Jenny

[Frederick L Clemens]

Hello Kameraden!
While on a trip to Berlin recently, I decided to try investing in some WWII militaria, and I think I may have come up with a winner, but I know little about the context and can only guess at the authenticity, aside from the dealer's protestations. Aside from the above, she did say that the owner died and the family brought the coat to sell. I paid $500 for it and she claimed it would fetch 2-3 times that price from a collector in the U.S. I hope I haven't been foolish to buy it.

You either have a great find or a dog - the odds are it is a dog.
I'm not a uniform expert but your story has all the warning signs of a scam - inexperienced collector buys unfamilar item from unknown dealer in a distant city who assures that the item is worth much more than the asking price!!! - been there, done that myself - in Berlin as well!
The most basic question you have to ask yourself in that situation is how much you think you can get out of the item after you realize it is a fabrication.
You are right - there was no SS Tiger Bn 509 only an Army 509. I also haven't seen any photos of Tiger members wearing the unit number on their shoulderboards - perhaps the Tiger fans out there could comment on that?
I will be heading over to Germany Sunday night for a couple of weeks to do vet interviews. I hope to include Tiger vet in Freiburg, maybe I could look at your coat while I am over there?

[Ethelian]

Hey Jenny,
have just had a quick look through "Tigers in Combat" Vol 1 and can find no pictures of a coat as you describe for the 509th.

There are not that many pictures of the men of the 509th but from your description i would say you have a "fake" on your hands.If you are able to travel around Germany i would suggest you visit the Panzer Museum in koblenz and see if the staff there could shed any more light on this for you.But it does sound like you have been "conned".

Oh and you are right the 509th is a Heer unit

Regards from the Swamp

Ethelian

[Abwehr]

Perhaps he was in the StuG company of SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 509. The Waffenfarbe, however, should not be pink if that is the case.

SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 509

24 Sep 44 formed by redesignation of SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 13 with 3 companies, one each of Pak, StuG, and Flak, when its parent division was disbanded late 44-45 IX SS-Mountain Corps, the Balkans and Hungary
Feb 45 Destroyed in Budapest

[JRSCline]

Sorry, I've not checked in lately due to having been dispatched on a TDY to Moscow (actually the former Vestrel Academy in Solnechnogorsk) where I'm being trained as a UN Observer. Fun! I'm typing this from an Internet cafe in a Solnechnogorsk basement.

The dealer guaranteed on the receipt that the item is genuine and original, but I'm not sure it's worth the train ride back to Berlin to get my money back if the thing's not genuine. On the other hand, my German LT buddy and I could easily go to Koblenz and ask the museum staff.

As I said I'll take a photo or two to post here when I get back home in a couple of weeks, and if any of you want to stop by Heidelberg to see it, you're welcome to. I also picked up a canteen, some knit gloves, and a bar of soap, all original.

The coat sure smells old for a fake, and it seems to have everything in the right places, except for a liner which may be where the manufacturer's mark was, because I can't find one in the coat now.

What a fun mystery!

Cheers
Jenny

[Frederick L Clemens]

On the other hand, my German LT buddy and I could easily go to Koblenz and ask the museum staff...The coat sure smells old for a fake, and it seems to have everything in the right places, except for a liner which may be where the manufacturer's mark was, because I can't find one in the coat now.

Jenny, I hope you don't mind me playing devil's advocate. I have a much more cynical attitude about collecting German militaria. That comes from seeing (and being burned by) just how much fake stuff there is out there. Germany seems to be even worse in this regard for at least two reasons - the public suppression of Nazi items gives the fabricators more freedom to rip people off, and the fact that foreign collectors assume that the best stuff should be found in Germany turns them into turkeys ripe for the plucking.
The only protection you have is knowledge, either your own or that of a friendly expert (not the guy selling you something!). There is an almost humorous phenomenon in the collecting community whereby some collectors swear by a specific dealer and ONLY buy from him. Guess what? That dealer often will use those saps as dumping grounds for the bad stuff they get stuck with!
The fabricators have years of experience, you have to have the same on your side. With the internet, you can now call on advice from people on these kinds of forums - for collecting militaria, I'd actually recommend this forum (http://wehrmacht-awards.com/misc/forum.htm).
As for consulting the museum staff in Koblenz - I'm not sure which museum you mean, but I see two potential problems there. Museum staff do not necessarily have the expertise to spot a fake Third Reich item, in fact, you will often see some of the worst fakes being proudly displayed as original items in museums. Also, it is not certain that a stranger will hurt your feelings by telling you that you have junk. Real experts in the collecting community are sometimes reluctant to give such candid advice to total strangers since it can lead to feuds among dealers and collectors.
Lastly, never trust how an item looks, feels, or smells unless you have already handled a couple dozen of the sure-fire real thing. One infamous example in the collecting world is the report of some dealers setting up small "helmet farms" in which low-value helmets are repainted and then aged by planting them halfway in the dirt behind their house for a couple of years - exposed to sun, wind, rain, and snow. The result is a $100 helmet magically turned into a $1000 helmet which has the look of a helmet that has been thru a war.
Bottom line is that you are best advised to read the reference books, cruise the collector forums, but most importantly, seek out a local knowledgeable collector - there certainly must be some in the Heidelberg military community - before making big dollar "investments" in German militaria.

Have fun in Moscow,
Frederick