Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

[Igorn]

Yurie is clearly extremely biased.

'Biased' is the wong word. I would call him a patriot of his country who wants to bring some clarity to the event of Chaerkassy operation from Russian perspective. Go ahead Yuri and post rarely available information.

Best Regards,

[jerijerod]

[quote="Yuri"]Apparently, the German air forces (Luftwaffe) it first of all land war, and already then actually war in air and air defence of territory of the country.[/quote]

By 1943 if i remember, Hitler had begun to put more faith in Flak around the cities and search light units for detecting the RAF night raids rather than putting stock in, what he thought, Hit and miss nightfigher interceptors because the people could actually see the 88's opening fire on the RAF and it gave great morale boost. (the same was true in England during the night blitz in 1940 where it has been documented that the army fired blanks into the sky or just fired their guns at nothing.)

The air arm itself was also suffering due to many other factors I won't go into here but i will add that the mascinations of Goring creating a personal army, like the SS, had led to the creation and greater support to the Felddivsionen.

[GaryD]

Yurie is clearly extremely biased.

I don't mind the bias; it's the disregard of basic facts which bugs me.

[Yuri]

Yurie is clearly extremely biased.

'Biased' is the wong word. I would call him a patriot of his country who wants to bring some clarity to the event of Chaerkassy operation from Russian perspective. Go ahead Yuri and post rarely available information.

Here case not in my patriotism or for lack of that
Deal at all not in actually propensity of German generals to say lies
As is known, propensity to say lies generals of all armies all countries possess, apparently, the general epaulets somehow promote development of this quality of human nature.
Affairs in especially lie of the German generals, in outrageous their lie.
First, they did not shun to say outrageous lie even during war and made falsifications still then. To me three of such odious falsifications are authentically known, at least.
Secondly, the lie in post-war memoirs German generals offends honour and dignity of soldiers and officers of all armies, not only armies of the opponent, but as soldiers and officers of one's own the army and armies of one's own the allies.
Not understand it only impetuous apologists of German generals can.

[Yuri]

Nope. The manpower requirements for Flak units were huge, but only a small percentage of them were at the Eastern Front. According to Flak: German Anti-aircraft defenses 1914-1945, out of 4,267 heavy and light batteries as of early 1944, only 639 were in Russia.

Volume of "pool" the important parametre, however, it only one of several important parametres.
Not less important parametres are: a/ debit of the stream on «input pipe»; b/ the expense from «a output pipe». Besides very it in the important parametre quality of the material arriving on pipes in this or that of "pools".
What not to admit an erroneous conclusion it is necessary to consider all these parametres, and not just one of them as you here offer. Documents in a the Keitel's folder give clear enough representation about quality of an arriving material and size of its expense on the Air Forces of Germany (Luftwaffe) in this or that of "pools" during the period with 1.9.1939 on 31.1.1945.
Documents from a the Keitel's folder show, that parametres of input and output pipes of "east pool" surpassed similar parametres of other "pools". Quality of a the human material arriving on the East as differed that was used in other places.

[jerijerod]

Hi Yuri,

I thought that the majority of Flak and Luftwaffe AA forces were deployed to the German heart land to protect the cities and modes of production that were keeping the Wehrmacht in the field.

From memory the majority of Luftwaffe fighters were deployed to Germany also but a substantial amount (Compared to other theaters) were sent to Russia still as the Germans maintained aerial quality and so the number of AA batteries sent to the east were smaller.

Cheers

Chris

[Yuri]

This the gen Stemmerman's order is transferred the Russian commander by the senior military doctor of group the European doctors and hospital attendants who left for care of the wounded the European officers and soldiers in Shanderovka.

======================

Group of general Shtemmerman 16.2.44

For care left wounded on a site of battles SHANDEROVKA -
by order of remain:

[The list of officers, corporals and ordinary military doctors and the hospital attendants remaining with wounded Europeans in Shanderovka - Yuri].


The commanding general

Stemmerman's signature
The general of artillery

The order text is made in two languages - German and Russian. General Shtemmerman has put the signature both under "German" and under "Russian" parts tis order. the "Russian" part of the order the hand-written.
In a the "German" part of the text of the order the list of military doctors and hospital attendants is given. In the Russian part of the text this list is not duplicated.

foto my

[Yuri]

Well.
Has found out rather interesting document: the Estimation of a headquarters of 1st air-defence corps about actions of units of 17th air-defence division. The document is addressed a headquarters of 4th air fleet

For those who does not know, I will notice, that 17th air-defence division along with 10th and 15th air-defence divisions was a part of 1st air-defence corps operating early of 1944 in Ukraine. (9th air-defence division was at this time in Crimea). In the document, in particular, it is informed, that units of 17th air-defence division operated together with formations VII AK. And, as is known, on the same site operated the formations of III.Pz.K of 1.Pz. A. of general Hube.

From the document of a headquarters of 1st air-defence corps it is visible as, that Abteilungs of 133rd (mot) and 12th (mot) air-defence regiments of 17th air-defence division operated as an infantry and as anti-tank artillery together with the rests of 198th infantry division. Especially it is necessary to underline, that in the document every time when 198th infantry division is mentioned, it is mentioned so «rest 198 ID».
Thus, documents made early 1944 in a headquarters of air-defence formations and units Luftwaffe confirm legitimacy of inclusion with the Joint Staff of Red Army 198 ID in number of formations the Wehrmacht which has got to the Korsun-Shevchenkovsky pocket. It we could see on a map 6 of „Study”.

Simultaneously it once again confirms legitimacy of a conclusion that stuck together the criticism of „Study” only on the basis of an "information oil cake" brought by the German generals in the KTBs mr. Zetterling has got into a mess.
I repeat a map 6 of „Study” the Joint Staff once again, with that however a difference, that here I have allocated a site on internally side of a front of encirclement which held "Ma 198 ID + rest 82 ID"

On available for me it is bad qualities of a copy of a map (from a German source) are specified actions of formations VII AK and III. Pz. Korps.
I have added there tactical signs on 12th and 133 (are motorised) air-defence regiments which operated together with «rest 198 ID».
Apparently my copy of a map from a German source of very bad quality and consequently at me such request:
Somebody could not send me good scans from this German source?
In advance I thank everyone who will venture will enter into contact to me in this occasion!

In the document of a HQ of 1st air-defence corps it is told, that with it (that is, with this document) in a HQ of 4th air fleet of the air-defence Abteilungs's reports go in appendices.
When I will find out the mentioned of the air-defence Abteilungs's reports could plot at once in the course of reading of these reports conditions on this good copy map. On my copy of a map it will be not so convenient and it will turn out not so beautifully.

[Yuri]

Has found out the battle report of the commander of 133rd (motorised) antiaircraft regiment of colonel Onemüller. The report covers the period from February, 20th till March, 11th, 1944. This document drives last nail in a cover of a coffin of the false version of the German generals about break from the Korsun-Shevchenkovsky pocket of 40,000 Europeans and about sending, ostensibly, such mass of personal in the rear region of Poland for rest and restoration.

On other branch of it the form, (which, much to our regret, thanks to provocation Jan-Hendrik it has been closed by a moderator) I already said, that at me last doubts in falsity of the version of the German generals have disappeared after I have personally visited village Budishche and have heard from inhabitants the story about a terrible show which they observed on the fields after on February, 17th, 1944 the cavalry of 5th Guards Don Cossack corps has chopped up here huge mass of the Europeans, trying to be pulled out from an encirclement.

So. After end of battles near Lysjanka - 12th antiaircraft regiment has obtained on February, 24th the order on moving to region Vinnitsa-Zhmerinka for creation there anti-aircraft and anti-tank defence.

133rd antiaircraft regiment (together with attached Abteilungs and batteries of other regiments) has obtained the order to organise anti-aircraft and anti-tank defence on a former place - that is in region Uman. In the previous battles Abteilungs of 133rd antiaircraft regiment have lost all guns. New guns for them has arrived from factories. Abteilungs received guns by turns to Uman where artillery workshops placed. Received guns were new and consequently they were required to be collected in workshops which placed to Uman - in factory territory. By March, 6th (that is by moment of the beginning of new approach of Red Army) 251st heavy antiaircraft Abteilung has not had time to receive the guns - they were in artillery workshops to Uman.

As infantry cover of the anti-tank positions occupied by Abteilungs of 133rd antiaircraft regiment, command of 7th AK used units created from the soldiers which could get out of an encirclement. In the report of colonel Onemüller specifies borders of a defended area which was held by these subdivisions.
Besides, from content of document follows, that colonel Onemüller has appended to the report two maps of scale 1: 100 000. He writes, that on a map 2 is noted the site held infantry the subdivisions created from the soldiers, got out of an encirclement.
I yet have not found out the maps enclosed to report of Onemüller. However a file with documents very big and I hoping, that to us will carry and, eventually, both maps will be found. However, as I have already told, and without these maps it is possible to specify precisely borders of defended area on which command of 7th AK has put Europeans of miracle rescued from death.

Colonel Onemüller characterises a physical condition of these poor creatures and informs the following about their arms: (I quote literally)
"... They are exhausted and wear out in previous battles on break, badly armed, and them some them at all have no weapon...". He asks Command 7 AK to strengthen defences the personnel and arms. This request remains without the answer.
Colonel Onemüller names such relation from command of ground forces as irresponsible.
To it it is possible to add, that command of 17th antiaircraft division has accompanied the official report of colonel Onemüller the document which has the name "Estimation of actions of 133rd antiaircraft regiment". Command of 17th antiaircraft division as has very negatively expressed concerning such relation To use absolutely exhausted, wear out and besides badly armed people.
Besides, on the document there is a resolution of the commander of 1st antiaircraft corps (a rank the lieutenant general the signature illegible). The text of the resolution of the commander of 1st antiaircraft corps does not leave doubt that he completely agree with conclusions of the subordinates about criminal irresponsibility of command of ground forces.

In the morning on March, 6th 1944 Russian artillery has opened storm fire (this day 2nd Ukraisnky Front has begun Uman-Batoshani offensive operation). When was heard the cannonade of Russian artillery holding defence before positions of 133rd antiaircraft regiment infantry subdivisions in a panic has rushed to escape to Uman on road of the fourth class. Panic flight of these subdivisions has provoked flight of infantry units of other divisions. The colonel Onemüller writes about it so:
"The avalanche of German infantry divisions has rushed to Uman".

Instantly transport of receding divisions has hammered in all highway and soil roads adjoining to them. In off-road could move could only full-track and semifull-track transport.
What to estimate conditions on positions of Abteilungs of its regiment, colonel Onemüller has taken off by the plane available for it fieseler Storch. From above he could observe observed a picture of a general panic and full chaos.
At landing on fieseler Storch the propeller breaks and the plane cannot fly up more.

Colonel Onemüller was convinced personally that the German infantry before positions of antiaircraft guns is not present. Soon there are Russian tanks with a landing. Russian commandoes get into back to the regiment's Abteilungs. The order is given to undermine guns. Abteilungs undermine just received guns. To Uman in artillery workshops there are still guns for 251st heavy antiaircraft Abteilung. Onemüller commands to antiaircraft Abteilungs to break Uman and itself goes on road astride a horse.
Since this moment in the document on infantry units, their created soldiers pulled out from an encirclement, it is not mentioned any more.

Further, in the document of the detailed events to Uman till March, 11th are set up. Then is set up that colonel Onemüller observed at departure on foot through Svoboda in Bershad - where the commander of 1st antiaircraft corps has given the order to anti-aircraft gunners of Luftwaffe will not obey to requirements of command of the ground forces, to all anti-aircraft gunners to move to Krakow to Poland.

In the document draws a picture of full chaos on roads and loss of huge number of arms and transport receding German divisions.

[GaryD]

Has found out the battle report of the commander of 133rd (motorised) antiaircraft regiment of colonel Onemüller. The report covers the period from February, 20th till March, 11th, 1944. This document drives last nail in a cover of a coffin of the false version of the German generals about break from the Korsun-Shevchenkovsky pocket of 40,000 Europeans and about sending, ostensibly, such mass of personal in the rear region of Poland for rest and restoration.

Yuri,

How does this document drive the last nail? It says absolutely nothing about how many men escaped the pocket. It has a lot to say about their condition, but that is another issue entirely. It is quite possible that 40,000 men escaped, but in very poor condition.

On a related issue, it is a shame that documents such as yours are hidden away from the research community.

[jerijerod]

the problem with talking to eye witnesses is that memory gets foggy. There is also a certain patriotic pride for the Great War against the German invader in Russia and so myth may have taken over and exagerated the number of cossacks killed in the charge.

The other thing is that if I understand correctly (sorry read in a hurry) if a flak regiment fought its way out of an encirclement with little or no weaponary and equipment and reported back to the Line... These guys are heros. Its a feat that shouldn't be knocked.

Cheers
Chris

[Jan-Hendrik]

How does this document drive the last nail?

Myself is already waiting for 4 pages that anythings comes that support the claims Yuri does repeat like a mantra, that western generals, historians etc. all lie and only the yuri version of history is right, with his phantasized french, czech and polish divisions supporting the wehrmacht in the East

Jan-Hendrik

[jerijerod]

my knowledge on the recruitment of soldiers is a little hazy but i would have thought all foreign volunteers for the Wehrmacht were put into the foreign legion battalions of the SS.

Any french and poles serving in the German army would have been ethnic Germans such as Alsace or Sudetenland Germans who had volunteered/conscripted to the Wehrmacht.
Its hardly a united Western military trying to grind down the Soviets. If it were surely a British detachment would have found its way to the front to fight the Russians in this "pan european pollyglot Wehrmacht"

[phylo_roadking]

A post by Yuri has been deleted from this thread.

Yuri - keep your discussions here to the detail in hand, NOT adhominem attack or on off-topic subjects. You've been banned from a number of forums so far; don't add this one to it.

[Yuri]

You've been banned from a number of forums so far; don't add this one to it.

Dear, administrator Phylo!

I inform you, that your informants absolutely on what are not suitable. Can cut down with quiet conscience it a payment! They mislead you.
The matter is that to today's I have been forbidden only at one forum, namely, it is more than year back efforts of one of Russophobe, located in staff of Axis History Forum, I have been "banned" at that forum. About it, by the way, I have warned at once as soon as was registered at your forum.

If, respected Phylo, at your forum it is allowed to with impunity to distort a position of the Russian participant I will not object to that your forum became the second at which against Yuri the inscription "banned" will flaunt.
Because I under no circumstances will disagree, that distortion of my point of view remains without consequences.
There are no doubts that removing my post it was necessary to remove simultaneously and provocative the Yan-Hendrick's post:

Myself is already waiting for 4 pages that anythings comes that support the claims Yuri does repeat like a mantra, that western generals, historians etc. all lie and only the yuri version of history is right, with his phantasized french, czech and polish divisions supporting the wehrmacht in the East

which has no relation to a theme of this branch and which distorts my point of view in spite of the fact that I repeatedly specified to it Yan-Hendrick in inadmissibility of such behaviour

I hope you me will understand correctly.

Sincerely,
Yuri