How elite were waffen SS solders at the last stage of 2 WW?
Tom,Tom Houlihan wrote:
The last few posts have been about the Hitlerjugend. Might we somehow get back on track with the original question? Heaven knows, there are enough opinions about the quality of the Waffen-SS at varying stages of the war.
Gerhard,gerhard2 wrote:Andre
This constant, just because some avid readers of the usual propaganda klap-trap say it happened like that therefore it must have happened like for that everyone is tiresome.
Read my previous post "How on earth can anyone compare the Hitler jugend of up to 1943 with the Hitler jugend of 1944 till wars end" again. That alone makes many of your statement .pretty ludicrous especially when you state:
"Are we now going to simply pretend that, for example, 12 SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend didn’t exist, that elements of the HJ didn’t fight in Berlin, and that HJ units didn’t serve amongst anti-aircraft crews?"
Incidentally I remember, it must have been in the last few ay's of April or early May 1945 on the way back to our staging area. Just the sgt major and me we saw cars driven by civilians loaded with weapons (short Italian rifles), grenades and M30 panzer faust handing out to anyone who would taske them. The only ones taking them were kids sometime chased by their mothers.
If that was the usual thing in what was left of Germany I don't know, just what I saw and I am certain this did not happen before the middle of 1944.
I have a suggestion for you, google "Connors, Michael F. - Dealing in Hate and try and read it with an open mind".
Gerhard
Phylo,phylo_roadking wrote:
My argument about the similarity of the HJ to other period youth organisations is the balance of fieldcraft vs. other types of...learning...and the level of paramilitary-style organisation applied to each movement. 1933-39 and on into the first years of the war, the time split between fieldcraft and learning/drilling was roughly similar.
Regarding pre-military training? Several family members during the immediate pre-war period - not just as boys but as organisers. And my father in the immediate POST-war period in the BB. You'll note that I've also posted evidence that there was VERY considerable debate at national level both inside the Scouts AND OUTSIDE in the community over the degree of militarism in its organisation at an earlier date. Would you also disagree that Army Cadets, Sea Scouts etc. are "pre-military training"?What evidence do have that supports your above claim?
I've seen you post evidence about the militarism of the HJ - but I haven't yet seen you post ANYTHING about British youth organistions including the Boy Scouts, Army Cabets, Boys Brigade....All the evidence I have come across (some of which I have posted on here) points to a very different conclusion
Andre - why do you seem intent on ignoring the effect that the the making-compulsory of HJ membership in 1936 FAILED??? It had to to be repeated TWICE - and STILL remained far from universal.This combined with the fact that the HJ was compulsory (post 36’) and elements of it not only performed active war-time duties but actually served in active front line combat roles clearly shows that there were huge differences between the two organizations.
Phylo,phylo_roadking wrote:Andre - why do you seem intent on ignoring the effect that the the making-compulsory of HJ membership in 1936 FAILED??? It had to to be repeated TWICE - and STILL remained far from universal.This combined with the fact that the HJ was compulsory (post 36’) and elements of it not only performed active war-time duties but actually served in active front line combat roles clearly shows that there were huge differences between the two organizations.
Regards,The mission of the HJ is to train all German Youth, physically, mentally and morally for national service in the spirit of National Socialism. School and home are subordinated to the interests of the State.
No. It was indicative of how the NSDAP gradually took control of ALL other "organisations" - no matter what their aim, membership or ethos.Because the making of membership compulsory (whether it worked or not) was indicative of the type of organization that the Hitlerjugend was becoming
I disagree. The Nazi’s were always in total control of the Hitlerjugend. It was their organization right from it's very concept. Making membership of the HJ compulsory meant that the Nazi totalitarian regime could use the organization as yet another tool to exert control over it’s people.phylo_roadking wrote:No. It was indicative of how the NSDAP gradually took control of ALL other "organisations" - no matter what their aim, membership or ethos.Because the making of membership compulsory (whether it worked or not) was indicative of the type of organization that the Hitlerjugend was becoming
Yes - but you're missing something. Scouting was closed down in Germany in 1934-35 and all members obligated to join the HJ BEFORE membership of the HJ was made compulsory. Thus you can see that its getting all aspects of life under control that came first, rather than the USING of that control. It could be used for something ONCE it was "total coverage"...or rather once any viable alternative channels for kids had been removed.The Nazi’s were always in total control of the Hitlerjugend. It was their organization right from it's very concept. Making membership of the HJ compulsory meant that the Nazi totalitarian regime could use the organization as yet another tool to exert control over it’s people
Hi Phylothe responsibilities of the Home Guard, for instance - the British government was giving FAR more 17-18 year olds a military role FAR earlier than the HJ was - AND in 1942 with the NAtional Service Act that military service became universal and compulsory. Exactly what percentage of German 16-18 year olds were cycled through 12th SS-Pz "Hitler Jugend" in 1943? It certainly wasn't 100%...as the ideal was in the UK in 1942..
