Max Wunsche and other things...

[olboeter]

Hi comrades ¡¡¡¡¡

I have been reading many about The Leibstandarte this last month and i have some questions to you ,so , I need help.

Some questions:


Jarkov Febraury 1943.

In the advance of reinforced recconociment batallion (Meyer.) ,part of which was 1 ss panzer batallion (Wunsche) , Which was the paper of Wunsche???? was subordinated of Meyer during all battle????

Why Wunsche was the commander of the 1 ss panzer batallion ???
Which were they epic actions in the strumgetchut company Leibstandarte to be chief of the panzer batallion 1 ? . I say this, because I have read more panzeractions in this period of Martin Gross that those of Wunsche .
And his paper in the inner of the city which was ....subordinated to Meyer always???
I know that in the same period he got the rittemkreuzc because one day he and his panzers knocket out a great number of t-34, but a bit else.....
Good panzer companies ( Beck , Jurgensen, Stubing...) , but his comander ???? the big Wunsche, Why??

Where are they actions?'.

Other question about Gerb Pleiss .

Before his dead in the summer of 1942 arrived to the range of sturmbanfurher or captain ?


And about Peiper:

How were the relapthions betwen Peiper and Khulman in the panzerregiment ? I think there were no good , by example I know taht the other comander Martin Gross was no the option of Peiper and he refused to continue in the panzer regiment because he did not want to serve under the orders of a young infantryman.

And speaking about Peiper , How know what did he happen on 7-July of 1943 when the 7ª panzer company had to go to the rescue of the comander of the SPW batallion , he was sigly wounded and trapped ?????in a destroyed Spw?
I have many other unclear questions about others officers of the division us Schorberger ( panzerregiment 42-44) really , which was his paper in battles as Kharkov.
Where did he die , in Kusk or in the begining of Zhitomir?
and who comanded de panzerregiment before his death and the arrival of Peiper?, I say this because many sources as Patrick Agte or Rudolf Lehmann or Kurt Meyer say diferents memoirs about the same question.



Thanks.

[Marc Rikmenspoel]

I believe in the early stages of the Kharkov campaign, Meyer, as an Ostubaf., held overall command of the battlegroup formed around his own SS-AA 1 and Wünsche's I./SS-PR 1. Wünsche was a qualified Generalstab Offiziere (there's a sheet recording his graduation from the Kriegesakadamie reprinted in Schulze-Kossens' Junkerschule book), but his tactical abilities and personal leadership qualities were such that it was decided to use him as a tank battalion commander instead of as a staff officer. He didn't have a great deal of actual command experience in the field, so serving alongside Meyer, who did have extensive frontline experience, was probably used as a sort of apprenticeship.

At that time, Martin Gross commanded the II./SS-PR 1. Also at that time, Jochen Peiper was commanding III.(gep.)/SS-PGR 2. His regimental commander was Theodor Wisch, and Wisch obviously formed a positive opinion of Peiper. Georg Schönberger was killed in action by artillery shrapnel on November 20, 1943 in the Zhitomir fighting. I think Peiper very quickly took over the Panzer Regiment, before anyone else (Gross or Kuhlmann) could serve as temporary commander. wisch was commanding LAH by this time, and he was the one who made the appointment of Peiper. Agte is probably correct in suggesting that Wisch hoped for more aggressive leadership than Schönberger had provided. The friction between Peiper and Gross and Kuhlmann was likely due to Peiper's style being TOO aggressive for them.

I believe Gerd Pleiss was a Hstuf. when he was killed near Rostov in late 1941. He had command of the 1. Kompanie at least in part because he was a very tall man, and only the tallest men of LAH were taken into the 1. Kompanie, at that time.

I hope this is of some help.

[olboeter]

Many thanks Mark for your answer.

And for the fantastic "Many nations one motto ", which i have bought some years ago.

I am agree with you about Gerb Pleibs ( I found his died in Leibstandarte II Page 167. and in Grenadiers of Kurt Meyer).

About de died of Schorberger , ok.

I can understand you about Wunsche-Meyer.

Other question , Mark

All the actions of panzer regiment Leibstandarte in late 1943 show me that Khulmann ( 1º gemitche panther batallion) was as a diferent unit independent of the panzer regiment , Peiper fight always whit the blue torch batallion and the second panzer batallion , until the arrival of Poetche to the panther batallion ......Is rare find actions of Khulmann under comandant of Peiper in Zhitomir.
I have never seing a photo between both comanders.

really , was Khulmann subordinated to Peiper? or this was only on the paper.
All the actions of Khulmann are independent of Peiper and i think that this was in detriment of the panzer regiment.

On 7 of July of 1943 , what did it happend to Peiper , do you know?
He was encircled , the 7º panzer company had to go to the rescue of him , and to the end of the day this action cost the division one hundred of died , the comannder was trapped in his spw , was all spw batallion encircled ?

Other question is .about Wheidenhautp of the panzer grenadiers .
He always was in front line , strumbanfurher and never promoted , other subordinated us Frey past him in the rank , why?

And to finish today whit Wunsche , if he was "learning" near Meyer in Jarkov , in Kursk is very rare read his name , after that and until Normandy he dessapeared , and in Normandy some days he had under his comandant four panzer batallions whit cathastropic results , why the 1 ss panzer korps gave him this task if there was many other experience comannders in the same division or in their sister division?
Other experience comannders us Gross in this date are comanding independent panzer units in the east front very well.

Thanks.

[Marc Rikmenspoel]

I only have answers (or guesses) for some of this. It does seem that Peiper and Kuhlmann didn't get along well with each other. I think both were somewhat distant personalities that weren't buddy-buddy with their fellow officers the way that, for example, Martin Gross was. After November 20, 1943, Peiper was commanding LAH's Armored Group, and this included Kuhlmann's I./SS-PR 1, but as you suggest, the impression is there that Kuhlmann was often sent on missions away from the main body of the Armored Group, and wasn't usually side by side with Peiper the way the officers of his old SPW Bataillon were. Of course when Peiper left the front circa February 1944, Kuhlmann then commanded the remnants of the Armored Group, and once he left, Poetschke led the remnants of the remnants in the Hube Pocket into April 1944.

I think Frey was an outstanding personality. He had great tactical ability as well as strong leadership qualities. Wiedenhaupt and Schiller were competent commanders at the company and battalion level, but were never selected for regimental command. I don't know specifics, but I would guess that Wiedenhaupt may have not gotten along with some of his higher commanders, so that his abilities were enough to keep him around, but Dietrich and Wisch refused to make him a regimental commander. At every opportunity for SS-PGR 1, 2, 25, and 26, they always found someone else. Meanwhile, I've never seen a suggestion that Frey or Kraas didn't deserve their various promotions, even when these put them ahead of their peers.

Wünsche left LAH before Kursk, to begin raising SS-PR 12. That's why you don't hear of him again until Normandy. In Normandy, anyone would have had catastrophic results due to Allied air and sea power, and their numerical superiority. Look at what happened to the Heer armored units, they suffered just as badly. So I don't believe their is any cause to single out Wünsche for the losses of the units under his leadership.

As to Peiper on July 7, 1943, I'm not familiar with this, but I'll look into it.

[olboeter]

Thank Marc.

I know that Wunsche left the front after Jarkov , and he does not see more action until Normandy . I am reading the (hardcover) history of 12 ss by Hubert Meyer .
In the first counterattack of the 12ss ( 2 panthers conpanies , the von butnner company and something else ) after more than a year of training , the comannder of the 12 ss panzerregiment one more else attack under cover of Meyer in that time comannder of the 25 or 26 ss panzergren. , a blody attack losing the surprise factor , in diference whit other dasing officers us Peiper , Wunsche and Meyer try to break the alied line whit fire power and less movility in the dark .

To break the antitank line , Others us Peiper in the east used the speed of the spw and the automatic weapons to advance in the reargurad of the enemy , but never used Panthers¡¡¡¡¡ and other factor was many of the men were rookies whit poor real training in spite of the last real exercices

Really , Wunsche doesnot use his panzers until the last days of the month , whit very bloody results.
And the first counterattack whit less than a mixed batallion, was comannded by tow regimental comannders...... whit a bad consecuences.

Wunsche din not learn the lexons after a year of study?


Other about Khulmann is that he should have good friends in the division or his superiors because after the loose of Wunsche he comannded the 12ss panzerregiment in spite of show me nothing special.

The panzerregiment until the arrival of Poetsche to the commandand of the 1 panthe batallion , really could not show the best of the fire power of the regiment because Poetsche and Peiper really were good comrades , and in the others positions of the regiment all comannders were men of Peiper in that date , they lost a important year , this descatalogue to the Leibstandarte in the rank of the best panzerdivision , and the best ss panzerdovision.

Othe question for you Marc , is a dude that i have since I bought "Many nations one motto" you have in your book a photo of a Kv in the Wiking panzer regiment whit a german 75 mm gun used in the caucasus .
Do you remenber?

In which companie was ? How many russian tanks had the Wiking panzer batallion in that date . Was dificult for the mechanics the emssamble of german gun in russian machine ? If this was not many complicate , Why then them din not use more russian machines whit german guns?

Thans for your answers .

[Marc Rikmenspoel]

I'm afraid I don't have any information about that KV in service with Wiking. The photo was part of a set of photos showing men of the original SS-Panzer Abteilung 5. Most of the shots showed them at gatherings, or standing around talking, I used some of those types of photos also in my book. Any information that was provided was included in the captions, so I'm sorry but there's nothing to add.

As to the first attack by by the 12. SS-PD HJ in Normandy, my understanding is that Meyer was ordered to attack as soon as possible with whatever units arrived first. It was considered that giving the Allies less time to land more men and organize their defense was more important than getting the HJ attack better organized. But history has shown that the HJ attack was not well organized, and that it then suffered heavy losses due to this. I don't particularly see this as the fault of Meyer and Wünsche, they tried to carry out the orders as best they could, but higher up commanders should have allowed better preparation. Perhaps Meyer and Wünsche could have demanded more time to organize, but perhaps they argreed that speed was of the essence. On the day after D-Day, most German Panzer leaders were still unfamiliar with the weight of Allied firepower from the sea and the air, so I suspect that Meyer and Wünsche went into their June 7 attack with Russian conditions in mind.

[olboeter]

Thanks Marc.

I am agree whit you, I do not understand why Meyer a veteran of aukflagrungs batallion and the movility , said to Von Buttner the dismount of the 15 rec. company?? and go up over the panthers , he usually and in special in Jarkov attack whit a combined group over his mounts to is true combined whit some panzers.
It is true that they were the first units in arrive to the assembly area but , in my opinion they should strat that attack whit the rec. batallion or the Olboeters¨spw batallion and this panthers companies after ,to break the front after the first attack
It is true that they could reconociment the village before the attack.

Marc, Do we have some kind of memories about Max Wunsche , in english?
The HJ division lost many of the best comanders which had, in two weeks in bloody fhigthing and whit many bad preparations of attacks to my opinion ( nothing to see whit the" twin villages", some months in the future, the worst..) .
Other question is about Monkhe?
Which is really the authentic paper of this official until the Ardenne or Berlín? He always is a last option to comannd , Did their superiors have confiance in his officer? or his adiction to the morfine was the motive of loose of confiance of his superiors?
His actions in Normandy were nothing.
Whit the creation of the 1º panzer batallion he was relevated by Meyer...

Thanks for the answers I am open too to others options of comrades .

[Marc Rikmenspoel]

There's a manuscript in the works about Wünsche, a biography in English, that the author has been working on for many years. I don't know the current state of the project, but it will probably have many accounts provided by veterans, when (and if) it eventually is published.

As to Mohnke, it seems clear that Dietrich liked him, and was always his patron. At the same time, Jüttner at the SS-FHA disliked Mohnke. It was Jüttner who removed Mohnke from command of the proposed SS-Panzer Abteilung LAH, when Mohnke was just presented plans for how to organize it. I would not be surprised if Jüttner had a role in Mohnke being removed from LAH command in early 1945.

But it was Dietrich who always remembered Mohnke as one of the original 117 members of LAH from 1933. Dietrich was the one who made Mohnke an acting battalion commander outside Dunkirk in late May 1940, when Schützek was wounded. Dietrich pressured Himmler to get Mohnke advanced promotions to Stubaf. and Ostubaf., and made Mohnke commander of the LAH Feldersatz Bataillon after the Panzer Abteilung trouble. Dietrich got Mohnke the DKiG, and then got him command of SS-PGR 26. At that post, he aproved his RK (recommended by Panzermeyer) and helped Mohnke obtain a promotion to Staf., and then got him acting command of LAH. Panzermeyer seems to have gotten along with Mohnke, but many others disliked him (his regimental commanders in LAH tried to have him removed late in 1944, but Himmler promoted Mohnke on the spot to Obfhr, to confirm him in command).

[olboeter]

Many thanks for your answers Marc.