The British instituted Trench raids mainly to
A) maintain the offensive spirit
B) demoralize the enemy
C) when possible obtain prisoners
In light of the causualties sustained in the raids, were these raids worthwhile?
Were Trench Raids really effective?
Moderator: sniper1shot
-
- New Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:47 pm
- Hans Knospler
- Supporter
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:10 pm
- Location: Vermont, USA
IMHO, no. There weren't many fast advances with trench warfare. The warfare itself was very slow, and in that respect, you'd have to dig a new trench (or use the enemies) to move foward. Even though were not talking casulties...it was a complete waste of human life (in terms of warfare) and was led by insane leadership.
Sincerely,
-Brendan Hunt
-Brendan Hunt
Ah, but soldiers being soldiers some men enjoyed the danger and dare I say it, the chance for some action that trench raids provided. My Great-Grandfather apparently volunteered for many a raid and no doubt he and his fellow Black Watch Jocks were highly unpopular with their German opposites. A new soldier was told to buddy up with my ancestor on one such raid. He was questioning the practicality of wearing kilts in trench warfare, and my Great-Grandfather pointed out one often over-looked advantage of wearing them: "when yon Jerry sees ye wi' yer black face and knobkerrie in yer haund, he'll crap himself jist wait an' see. Mind, ye might jist crap yersel an aw, but wi' the kilt on it jist fa's straight oot!'
Hitler...there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in ONE afternoon! TWO coats!! Mel Brooks, The Producers
-
- New Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:47 pm
great story Liam !
i am of two minds of these raids myself. i can see where the boredom of static warfare would make these raids appealing to the Or,and of course Brass wouldnt want the troops getting too complacent :heaven forbid more unoffical truces should occur.
I also am pondering if instead of small raids, if the larger attacks wouldnt have been more effective at night. i.e more enemy killed, less friendly losses
i am of two minds of these raids myself. i can see where the boredom of static warfare would make these raids appealing to the Or,and of course Brass wouldnt want the troops getting too complacent :heaven forbid more unoffical truces should occur.
I also am pondering if instead of small raids, if the larger attacks wouldnt have been more effective at night. i.e more enemy killed, less friendly losses
- Marc Binazzi
- Supporter
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:43 am
- Location: Paris, France
The French army had what was known as "nettoyeurs de tranchées" (trench cleaners), I recently saw photographs of these men (all volunteers of course) and they did not look like they would make prisoners.... they had a specific equipment, in particular knives and grenades and they had a scary reputation but I guess all armies developed that type of special force. Another way to "clean" the trench on the other side was to dug a tunnel underneath and put explosives in it. Germans and French played that game quite a bit.
"the iron fist had a glass jaw" (Ronald Reagan in Raoul Walsh's Desperate Journey)
-
- Patron
- Posts: 8459
- Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm
I don't think they had any hard startegic use - apart from intel gathering, of course, and prisoners had only a limited utility for that - but it certainly could play it's part in the overall tactical situation. I wish I could remember the source, it's LONG pre-Internet, but I read once that an increased incidence of trench raids was like a concentrated barrage - regarded as the sign of an imminent attack...so the British at least got into the tactic of increasing their raids in quiet sectors to draw in reserves, or have troops moved from one sector to another away from a planned Allied attack
However, it DID have the additional use of making the normally interminably-boring life of trench warfare continually a high-stress environment...so low-activity, high-stress - the correct environment to lower morale, breed rumours etc. I don't know if the brass were aware in concrete terms of what they were doing - increasing the ever-present risk and growing level of battle fatigue in enemy lines - but given how they reacted to battle fatigue behind their OWN lines I severly doubt it LOL
However, it DID have the additional use of making the normally interminably-boring life of trench warfare continually a high-stress environment...so low-activity, high-stress - the correct environment to lower morale, breed rumours etc. I don't know if the brass were aware in concrete terms of what they were doing - increasing the ever-present risk and growing level of battle fatigue in enemy lines - but given how they reacted to battle fatigue behind their OWN lines I severly doubt it LOL
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
- Marc Binazzi
- Supporter
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:43 am
- Location: Paris, France
This is a link to the thread discussing Trench Cleaners on a French WW I Forum. The text is French but the photographs and drawing speak for themselves. There was a doubt regarding the cartridge holders two of the soldiers wear: French cavalry or British Army????
http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pa ... 1971_1.htm
the strange and extremely unpleasant-looking device drawn is called "arme de zigouilleur", an old slang word for "killer's weapon" or "slaughterer's weapon".
http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pa ... 1971_1.htm
the strange and extremely unpleasant-looking device drawn is called "arme de zigouilleur", an old slang word for "killer's weapon" or "slaughterer's weapon".
"the iron fist had a glass jaw" (Ronald Reagan in Raoul Walsh's Desperate Journey)
-
- Contributor
- Posts: 297
- Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:50 pm
- Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Hi Scott,
I would recommend Tommy / Richard Holmes and When Your Numbers Up / Desmond Morton for a view of Commonwealth forces on the Western Front and Canadians on the same front respectively. It is said that the reason that one of the four divisions attacking Vimy Ridge at Easter 1917 did not reach its objectives on that day was the fact that it had been involved in a large scale trench raid in the preceeding weeks against the wishes of the Corps commander Sir Arthur Curry.
Cheers.
John K
I would recommend Tommy / Richard Holmes and When Your Numbers Up / Desmond Morton for a view of Commonwealth forces on the Western Front and Canadians on the same front respectively. It is said that the reason that one of the four divisions attacking Vimy Ridge at Easter 1917 did not reach its objectives on that day was the fact that it had been involved in a large scale trench raid in the preceeding weeks against the wishes of the Corps commander Sir Arthur Curry.
Cheers.
John K
' Strip war of the mantle of its glories and excitement, and it will disclose a gibbering ghost of pain , grief, dissappointment and despair'
-
- New Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:47 pm
thanx very much for the titles, i will look them up!John Kilmartin wrote:Hi Scott,
I would recommend Tommy / Richard Holmes and When Your Numbers Up / Desmond Morton for a view of Commonwealth forces on the Western Front and Canadians on the same front respectively. It is said that the reason that one of the four divisions attacking Vimy Ridge at Easter 1917 did not reach its objectives on that day was the fact that it had been involved in a large scale trench raid in the preceeding weeks against the wishes of the Corps commander Sir Arthur Curry.
Cheers.
John K
I'm currently reading Rommel's Infantry Attacks! for my German Military History class, and the book is about his experiences in World War I. At the start of it is his experiences on the Western Front before (and at the start of) the stagnation. Rommel commanded such a trench raid, and it boiled down to several days (if not a week or more) of planning, a few harrowing hours of the actual operation, and 6-8 prisoners.
Not that impressive.
Concerning night attacks, I believe they were used, but only towards the end of the war.
Not that impressive.
Concerning night attacks, I believe they were used, but only towards the end of the war.
Gold for the craftsman,
Silver for the maid.
Copper for the craftsman,
cunning at his trade
"Good!" said the Baron,
Sitting in his hall
"but Iron, Cold Iron,
is master of them all"
-Kipling
Silver for the maid.
Copper for the craftsman,
cunning at his trade
"Good!" said the Baron,
Sitting in his hall
"but Iron, Cold Iron,
is master of them all"
-Kipling
- sniper1shot
- Moderator
- Posts: 1438
- Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: Canada
One point no one has mentioned is MORALE.
Both for and against....
For the Allies (or whoever is the attacker) as they are doing something to the enemy. Intel gathering to see who they are opposite.
Against the Enemy (or whoever is the surprised) as they are never sure when one is coming, always at night, not sure if they will survive it or be Kia. Nervous and constantly on edge.
Both for and against....
For the Allies (or whoever is the attacker) as they are doing something to the enemy. Intel gathering to see who they are opposite.
Against the Enemy (or whoever is the surprised) as they are never sure when one is coming, always at night, not sure if they will survive it or be Kia. Nervous and constantly on edge.
Only he is lost who gives himself up as lost.