Supposed Das Reich war crime near Kharkhov?

[J. Buck]

Hello, I just bought Philip Vickers book (not Max Hastings book which I also think is distorted in its presentation.) "Das Reich's march through France. It is filled with a very biased one sided view of Das Reich with Das Reich being portrayed as the evil bad guys and the French Partisans as the good heroic resistance fighters. It is ridiculously simplistic and I believe distorts history. But one thing that really shocked me was right in the begginning of the book he states Das Reich was involved with the extermination of 20,000 civilians at Kharkhov and that they were assisting the Einzattsgruppen. Has anyone else heard of this atrocity? and was Das Reich involved? This same author just a few sentences later states that Das Reich had just come from its devestating losses on the Russian front including narrowly escaping from the "Cherkassy pocket" or it might have been "Cholm pocket"(I have the book at my office). Whichever one it was I am almost certain that Das Reich was at neither. If both of these facts aren't true, as I believe is the case, how can authors be allowede to get away with this. I mean these books end up history books that future generations will read as fact. There should be some journalistic responsibility. It is unbelievable. Anyone hear of any of this? Regards, John PS-Mark Thanks but I already have your book "Knights of Steel",Regards, John

[jan willem]

It was not Das Reich but Totenkopf which was accused doing this warcrime! First of al Totenkopf was not in the city of Kharkov, just a KG Kunstmann which left Kharkov-West after receiving new order to follow the path of KG Baum.

At the time the Germans left Kharkov (after the russian recaptured kharkov for the first time) the population was around 300.000 inhabitants, after the captured kharkov 100.000 were missing.

10.000 evacuated by the germans
10.000 left with the russians
4000 have been shot by the russians(for helping the germans etc.)
15.000 men have been send, by the russians, to the frontline
5000 women taken out by the russians to become a "Nachrichtenmädchen"
35.000 left the city by there own
21.000 killed during the battle

This number is from "Wie eim Fels im Meer"

As you can read in, forexample Platz der Leibstandarte" a lot of russians living in Kharkov, have been killed by the Red Army.

A lot of Russians even where happy the Germans came back because of getting something to eat.

But lets not forget also the Warcrimes done by the Germans. Das Reich has been doing things which can be stated as Warcrimes.

Lets not forget that the Germans started this war at the beginning!!! The resistance fought the Germans because they occupied there countries!!!

jan willem

[Wolfkin]

It was the Kamenets-Podolsk Pocket, otherwise known as the "Hube Pocket" that Das Reich was trapped in during March and April of 1944. You would not believe how many books and such mix up the Cherkassy Pocket with the Kamenets-Podolsk Pocket. The Panzer Divisions trapped in the Kamenets-Podolsk Pocket were:

-1st SS Panzer Division "Leibstandarte"
-2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich"
-1st Panzer Division
-6th Panzer Division
-7th Panzer Division
-11th Panzer Division
-16th Panzer Division
-17th Panzer Division
-19th Panzer Division

The battle for this pocket is quite amazing. All the Panzer Divisions made it out bringing with them most of their equipment and all wounded. It was a much more successful engagement than the Cherkassy Pocket battles.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

[J. Buck]

Thanks Jan and Wolfkin for your info. With regard to fighting against partisans I truly believe that this must be one of the most frustating and angering things to have to deal with as a soldier. When civilians pick up arms and start shooting and killing uniformed soldiers, you have a disaster waiting to happen. As a soldier you can understand fighting against other soldiers, but it is very hard and very angering to deal with civilians who should not be involved starting to kill your fellow soldiers, this is no longer normal warfare and this will always bring out the worst. The Geneva convention knows this and that is why it states along the lines of some ratio of something like 10 to 1 partisans can be killed for every soldier killed, so as to maximize the deterrent against this type of illegal and horrible warfare. With regard to Das Reich's actions on its trek to Normandy from the South of France, I can understand the frustration and anger that must have been building against the partisans as attack after attack were occurring on its movements North. This same frustration and anger at being shot at and being unable to find someone to really strike back at led to the My-Lai massacre in Vietnam. As what typically ends up with partisan activity you knew that something bad was going to come from it and sure enough Oradour soon happened. As a father of a 8 year old girl and 5 year old boy I believe what happened at Oradour was an absolute horror and inexcuseable but when civilians start picking up arms against soldiers these are the types of outcomes are almost guarranteed. My two cents, John

[sid guttridge]

Hi J. Buck,

Thanks for pointing out a glaring error. If a German unit had committed a war crime at Kharkov AFTER escaping the Cherkassy pocket it would have had to have done so several hundred miles BEHIND Russian lines!

You ask, why does this nonsense occur? Because the military book market is publisher-led, not historian-led. People buy Waffen-SS books almost regardless of their quality, so the publishers are going to dredge them up from somewhere, equally regardless of their quality.

Personally, I have a very jaundiced view of the Waffen-SS as an institution, but I object strongly to shoddy research that saddles them with blame for crimes they did not commit.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Marc Rikmenspoel]

Just a note about the participation of Das Reich in the "Hube Pocket." The vast majority of the division had left the front in December 1943 to rebuild. A battlegroup of 5000 men remained behind, but this was worn down in constant fighting. Elements continued to leave to join the rebuilding, so that by the time the 1. Panzerarmee was encircled around Kamanetz-Podolsk, the elements of Das Reich involved amounted to only a reinforced battalion. After the relief of Hube's forces, the Das Reich battlegroup at last rejoined the main body of the division, and from the starting point of 5000 men, was down to just 800. To imply that the entire division was in the kesselschlachten is ridiculous, but is typical of the quality of this very shoddy book, which I too found to be badly researched on the German side.

[Wolfkin]

Thanks for that note Marc. I should have specified the fact that Das Reich was only a Kampfgruppe at that time and also that most of the Panzer Divisions were worn out and operating at low strength. I think I remember a number stating that the average Panzer strength was only about 12 or so. This makes the escape of these units even more amazing!

Also, I forgot to mention above, I believe that sPzAbt 503 and sPzAbt 509 were in the Pocket as well.

I am confused as to the name of "Kampfgruppe Das Reich" at this time. I have seen it referred to as "Kampfgruppe Lammerding" and also "Kampfgruppe Weidinger". Would you know the correct name? Thank you in advance.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

[Marko]

Hi Wolfkin!

On 13 December it was announced that the Das Reich division was going to be relieved and transferred to Stablack in East Prussia. SS-Panzerkampfgruppe »Das Reich« was formed from all of the division's combat ready elements, with the next structure: KG Stab, Pz.Gre.Rgt. »Das Reich« (2 inf. btl.), 1 Pz.Abt., 1 Art.Abt., 1 Werfer Abt., 1 Aufklärungs company, 1 Pionier company, 1 heavy inf. company, 1 Flak company, 2 stug companies plus other support units. KG commander was Ostubaf. Sommer. Heeresregiment z.b.V. (Pz.Pi.Btl.87, Pz.AA25 and Pz.Pi.Btl.19) was also attached to the KG for a short period before being disbanded and Stubaf. Weiss was its first commander followed by Weidinger.
Though officially known as SS-Panzerkampfgruppe »Das Reich« (and humorously in early 1944 as SS-Panjekampfgruppe) until the breakthrough from the Hube pocket, it was probably also named as KG Lammerding from 28 December after he took over the command till 7 March when Weidinger replaced him. BTW, there is not even one mention of KG Lammerding or KG Weidinger in the divisional history only Pz.KG »DR«. Pz.KG »DR« performed remarkably virtually till the last day, when they despite being severely understrenght, managed to capture the all important Hill 347 and thus secured the eastern front of the pocket before a collapse in the last minute. Lammerding and Eckert received KCs during this period.

Mark

[Wolfkin]

Hey Marko!

I would like to give you a very late thank you for your answer! I forgot to check for a reply and actually forgot about this thread. I just noticed that it moved to page two.

Sorry for not thanking you earlier and thank you again! I have wondered about the Das Reich Kampfgruppe for quite a while.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

[Marko]

No problem, Wolfkin. Also note that the number of men sent to east Prussia for reformation in December couldn't have been much higher then of those who remained in the front.

[Wolfkin]

Hey Marko!

Thanks again! Yes, Das Reich was really worn down by that time, they had been fighting since July '43 with no rest at all. Leibstandarte has been one of my favorite divisions to study but I have also gained an interest in Das Reich, while Leibstandarte was pulled out of the line in late July Das Reich and Totenkopf stayed at the front fighting with no rest. One has to acknowledge and respect the burden of what a soldier must go through in conditions like this.

Cheers,

Wolfkin