Failure of 16. PD, 17. PD, 1.PD and 8. PD at Brody, 1944

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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Rich
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Post by Rich »

Martin Block wrote:On the 'Zustandsbericht' of s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 dated 1.7.1943 the CO noted that none of the units 45 'Hornissen' was operational because of some not nearer specified basic technical problems that could not be solved by the battalions own means.

On 9.7.1943 the commanding general of the XXXXII. A.K. added a note to that same report stating that the unit was subordinated to his corps since 2.7.1943 but still none of the 'Hornissen' was combat ready despite many tests and technical changes.

The 'Zustandsbericht' for 1.8.1943 is missing in the BA/MA but on the one for 1.9.1943 it is noted that the "Abt. seit dem 6.8.1943 im Einsatz ist". Maybe that's the date you're looking for, Rich.

Martin Block
Excellent, yes, thanks Martin. It's been about three years since I went through those and still can't find the copies I made, although I have my notes that the copies were made and from where. :?

And the problems were:

"die Erschuetterungen des Rohres die Lagerung des Rohres und die Richtmaschine beschaedigt werden. Ein neue Zurrung [?] ist erforderlich....saemtliche Stuetz und Lenkbremsen schlecht eingestellt sind, wodurch fast alle Motoren ueberhitzen. Aus dem Bericht der Pz.Jg. Abt. geht hervor, dass die Fahrzeuge in einem voellig ungenuegenden Zustand die Fabriken verlassen und in den Werkstaetten der Truppen ueberholt werden muessen." 17 June 1943.

From which I get,

"the vibrations of the tube [?], the mounting of the tube, and the traversing machinery is defective/damaged. A new Zurrung [?] is necessary....all supporting [?] and steering brakes are badly adjusted, whereby nearly all engines overheat. From the report of the Pz.Jg. Abt. it follows that the vehicles left the factories in a completely unsatisfactory condition and must be overhauled in the troop workshops."

But then my German is pretty rusty.
Panzeralex
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Post by Panzeralex »

Rich, maybe it is help you:
In KTB A.O.K. 8 firstly mentioned battle actions s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 was on 12.8.43,
when kompanies s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 were attached to 39 I.D. and 6 Pz.D. XXXXII AK and during that day s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 destroyed 12 russian tanks.
There were 8 combat-ready Hornisse (not all info, because it was without strength report from 1.Kp.) in s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 on 12.8.43.

best regards,
Panzeralex
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Qvist
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Post by Qvist »

Is this an accurate quote? Did Newton really say that 1,601,454 German soldiers were killed in Russia in 1943? That is absolutely wrong. By the end of 1943 the number of Germans killed on the E. Front since June 22 1941 in the Wehrmacht was around 700,000. That 1.6 mil. must refer to total casualties, not killed.
It does - the German combat losses (killed, missing and wounded) in the East during 1943 were of that order.

cheers
Eduard
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19 panzer loses in august 1943

Post by Eduard »

Well I came to this interesting posting and I have read it all.

In some places the actual loses of 19 pz div in tanks are discussed. Especially during the encirclements it suffered to the north-west of Kharkov.

I guess, the soviets claimed the Panthers of Pz Abt 51 as belonging to the division.

In fact most of them were not serviciable so they had to be abandoned or demolished by their owners during the retreat and others were also destroyed by the advancing soviets.

I don't have the exact figures but between 35-50 panther tanks lost would be an aproximate figure (?).

Eduard
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Re: 19 panzer loses in august 1943

Post by GaryD »

Eduard wrote:I guess, the soviets claimed the Panthers of Pz Abt 51 as belonging to the division.

In fact most of them were not serviciable so they had to be abandoned or demolished by their owners during the retreat and others were also destroyed by the advancing soviets.
Do you think they shouldn't have been counted?
Eduard
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panthers and 19 panzer

Post by Eduard »

Yes I understand the soviets would count any tank as belonging to the 19th panzer division if they were in its area of operations.

I just tried to explain a possible reason why the numbers they told were destroyed were not reflected in 19 panzer status reports. The panther were not included in the reports because belonged to another formation.

ed
Eduard
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panthers and 19 panzer

Post by Eduard »

Yes I understand the soviets would count any tank as belonging to the 19th panzer division if they were in its area of operations.

I just tried to explain a possible reason why the numbers they told were destroyed were not reflected in 19 panzer status reports. The panther were not included in the reports because belonged to another formation.

ed
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