Anti-tank rifles

[maschinengewehr42]

"Well, teorically the 30 mm side armour in the Panzer II and IV could be penetrated by the 14,5 mm russian AT rifles, always shooting at short range."

Did the earlier models, used 1939 - 41, have much thinner side armor? 30mm sounds like the turret.

Actually, the PzKpfw IV had 30mm side armour on the LATE models, Ausf. G, H, and J. This thickness was the same on both the hull and turret sides. The early Ausf. D, for example, had just 20mm side armour on the hull and turret. Most PzKpfw IIIs produced also had 30mm side armour on turret and hull.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Hmmm... I did some research last year on the subject & thought the sources were showing the MkIII of 1939 - 40 to have much thinner armor. Unfortunatly I see the notes German side armor were not retained. Just a remark: "rear 15mm!!" which I'm now unsure of which vehical that is for. The French tanks of the era had some impressive side armor. Typically 30 to 40mm, and sloped at 45 degrees. The B1 has side armor of a incredible 60mm, tho it is vertical.

I do recall none of the sources I used were in agreement on anything & I ended up averaging the two most reliable looking.

[Panzerschiff]

"Well, teorically the 30 mm side armour in the Panzer II and IV could be penetrated by the 14,5 mm russian AT rifles, always shooting at short range."

Did the earlier models, used 1939 - 41, have much thinner side armor? 30mm sounds like the turret.

Let see:

Pz IV ausf D 30 mm side and rear hull and turret.

Pz III ausf E & F 30 mm al sides.

Pz III ausf H 30 mm sides ( hull & turret) 30 mm rear hull, and 30 plus 20 ( aplique armor) in the front turret and hull.

Pz II ausf F 35 mm front and 15 mm sides.


As we see the 14,5 mm AP was very usable against the tanks in that period, when the tiger and the Panthevr were introduced...I guess that the russian start to use their rifles as heay sniper ones.



PTRD in Kursk.




PTRD Vs Sd.Kfz 251





PTRD and PTRS in the antiaircraft role.





And this cutie was 15x114 mm AP-I tracer with hardened steel core.

[Panzerschiff]

Panzerbüchse 35(p) / PzB 770(p)



The polish Maroszek WZ 35 had been conceived and developed by Lt.Col. T. Felsztyn and the engineer Jósef Maroszek in the early 1930ies. First trials in late 1935 proved unsuccessful, because the extremely stressed barrel endured only about 20 shots.



After intensive research and testing an almost perfect relation between ammunition characteristics and barrel construction was reached. The new weapon had a life expectancy of 300 shots. It was integrated into the army in November 1935, simulated battles showed a more than satisfying performance as an anti-tank rifle.
However, the rifle was considered so important that a strict veil of secrecy was put over the whole project, and the delivery crates - containig one Maroszek WZ 35, three replacement barrels and three full ammo magazines - were sealed with the strict order that the seal was only to be broken under direct orders of the defense minister. Until July 1938 only a very restricted and select group of people (again under strict nondisclosure - orders) - mostly military commanders of different command levels - was shown the weapon. The result was that in many cases the soldiers that were to use it didn't even see the weapon before WW II started with the german invasion of poland! Due to all this, this reasonably performing weapon saw only very limited use in the polish war against the attacking germans; many polish soldiers ended the short german invasion of Poland still ignorant of the weapon!
The germans captured considerable numbers of these weapons still unissued in the armories and storages; it received the german designation Panzerbüchse 35(p) ("Tank Rifle", the suffix "p" for "polnisch") - abbreviated as PzB 35(p) - but was also called Panzerbüchse 770(p) and was issued to german troops. Some of the weapons were also given to and employed by italian troops. At least 630 of these polish tank rifles were incorporated into the Wehrmacht and used in the war against the French in 1940


The PzB 35(p) was a single shot weapon with a magazine for three rounds. It can easily be recognized by the lack of a pistol grip which is rather uncommon for tank rifles. The barrel had 6 grooves / right spin and was very long and thin.

the large cartrigde.



After 300 shots it had to be changed, which could be accomplished rather quick and uncomplicated with a special key. The well-designed muzzle brake absorbed 65% of the recoil forces and the recoil of the weapon was contrary to other tank rifles only slightly stronger than that of a regular infantry rifle. The bullet used an steel core and then a tugsten carbide core.



This weapon fires is widely regarded as the foremost drawback of this weapon. The high velocity of the bullet made for an extremely staright flight path, therefore sights at a range of 300m were used. The weapon comes complete with a bipod but can be used without it. Penetration performance is rated at 25mm of armor at 50m and 22 mm at 100m (both at 60° impact angle), which sufficed for the successfull engagement of lightly armored vehicles early in the war, but like other tank rifles the weapon was practically useless against tanks after 1940-41.

Other data: caliber 7.92mm; Vo : 1,280m/s; length 176cm; barrel length 120cm; weight w/o ammo 9.5kg (10kg with bipod)



sources:

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/p ... htm#pzb35p

http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/viewt ... 5&start=30

http://www.quarry-nildram.uk

[Eduard]

Friends,

As far as I know the Panzerbusche was also used to throw Heat antitank grenades.

And common rifles were also used the same way with I guess some success, because the launcher was in stock of infantry units in great numbers and the grenades were produced also in big quantities...

Any report of their real effectiveness. In theory they had the capability to knock out a for example T-34 or Sherman at short range.

A doubt, was the rifle fired ponting directly to the target or in the traditional way of indirect fire of a HE rfle grenade.

Many thanks

Eduard

[phylo_roadking]

Eduard, you'd still be depending on good spotting and sighting to find a point on an AFV you could penetrate, so it would HAVE to be line-of-sight.

[Dragunov]

what about the flare pistol AT grenade launchers? a horrendous claim in a book i read (secret weapons of the 3rd reich, Leslie E. Simon) said it could penetrate the armour of most tanks. the jerry's shaped-cherge technology wasn't really that good, was it?

[phylo_roadking]

If they were, wouldn't we be discussing them and their contribution to stopping the Red Army's tanks more often?

Depends most of all on where on a tank an armour-piercing device of any size hits - even those little grenade-sized cluster bomblets will take a tank out of action by exploding on top of an engine deck, the thinnest part of a tank's armour; after all, its usually just steel louvres for ventilation.

But using something like a flare gun to do THAT would require a LOT of practice! Your average feldgrau would have to be like the black "bloop" gunner from Apocalypse Now!

Thats why the Russians came up with their Drogue-guided AT grenades - getting close enough to manually "place" means greater accuracy - if greater attrition

[Eduard]

Well, yes they wouldn't have been very effective.

So more surprissing the great number of launcher devices and grenades made and issued to the troops.

[phylo_roadking]

D., the British ALSO had an AT rifle grenade, the no.68 grenade I think, for use from a Lee-Enfield's EY cup. It was SO remarkably successful it was withdrawn from service and given to the Home Guard. Enough said!

[Rolf Steiner]

can't remember where I got this from (or if it's relevant to this thread even), but read somewhere that the Ferdinand/Elefant had this unusually thick belly armour - what was that about, mine protection?

[Dragunov]

that's kinda stupid, if a ferdinand hit a mine and lost one wheel (only one) it would be immobile.

[maschinengewehr42]

that's kinda stupid, if a ferdinand hit a mine and lost one wheel (only one) it would be immobile.

But the crew might survive, who were a much greater investment than the vehicle anyway!

In any case I have the Ferdinand/Elefant belly armour as 20mm; not particularly thick.

[Rolf Steiner]

hmm maybe I was eating cheese before bedtime on that one... recently read things by Alan Clarke and Rupert Butler, not sure if I got that from either of those, will check back.

didn't realise it till today, but the imperial war museum has both the russian and the polish AT rifles on display. unwieldy looking things in both cases!

[Dragunov]

fun fact-
here in Canada (yup, the big yellow submarine) full autos aren't legal... but the lahti 20mm and the PTRD and PTRS are. that's sorta redundant, since you can't rob a bank with a Uzi, you can shoot up an armored van.