I've been reading Tieke's "The Caucasus and the Oil" and there is much about Wiking in it. So in an effort to learn some about this unit and looking around at http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de./Gl ... Wiking.htm I see that it supposedly had a Sturmgeschutz Abteilung. Is this true? Did it have any StuGs during the summer 1942 offensives? I haven't found a reference to any in Tieke's book so far.
I did do a forum search but I didn't find anything about an attached STuG unit.
R,
Paul
SS-Infantry Division (mot.) "Wiking" in the Caucas
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Jan-Hendrik
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Thanks. I missed that.
From Rostov to the Caucasus
Hello to all, for those who could not catch the Tieke's book "The Caucasus and the Oil" a bit with regard to the SS Wiking movements and fights.
Don river crossing.
In the spring the river Don basin had, at Rostov level, six kilometers wide; to the south of the city the river split up in three branchs, each 300 to 500 meters wide. Two lines (railway and road) linked Rostov with Bataisk. The railway embankment had 5 to 6 meters high running in a straight line from Rostov to Bataisk for almost 7 kilometers. The main road was 6 to 8 meters wide rising a few meters from the swampy area; it began 800 meters to the east of the railway, after a big bend crossed below the rail running aside it toward the south separate by roughly 10 meters.
On July 24, 1942, a few infantry battalions, belonging to the German 73 ID, were advancing slowly through the swamp and mud astride the railway embankment towards Bataisk. Late afternoon, this very day, those advanced Battalions launched an assault against the Bataisk’s edge but were rejected. Nevertheless the swampy area between the city of Rostov and Bataisk was mopped up. By nightfall the engineers started the works on the destroyed bridges.
On July 25, the enemy positions at Bataisk were shelled by at least 40 batteries (light and heavy ones), also aerial attacks were carried out with 36 stukas.
On July 26 some gebirgs jagers units could finally seize great part of Bataisk with the support furnished by artillery and dive bombers (stukas).
On July 28 the tanks and heavy vehicles could go across the river and the last resistance at Rostov itself was wiped out.
The SS "Wiking" march to the Caucasus.
While resting at Rostov, the division was reinforced and re-organized as follow:
Commander: Oberst Gille (SS AR 5).
Troops.
SS Nordland Regiment (less one battalion)
I / SS Germania Regiment.
SS Pz Abt 5.
1 Engineer company.
SS AR 5 ( with 3 groups, two of them with 2 batteries of 105 mm and 1 battery of 155 mm; the third with 1 battery of howitzers 105 mm and 1 battery of cannons 105 mm).
1 AA Abt ( with two batteries of 88 mm and one with cannons of 20 mm and 37 mm).
1 Reconnaissance company.
1 Pz Jager Abt.
Support units (communications, maintenance and supply).
The Kampfgruppe was, as well, split in three groups as follow:
1 Infantry battalion.
1 Artillery group.
Antitanks ( half to one company).
1 AA Platoon.
The bulk of the tanks, antitanks and AA guns should march with the Advance Guard; the engineers should march either with the Vanguard or the others groups as ruled the situation. Each group could be employed with independence if necessary.
The Reconnaissance company was, in turn, split in two half companies ( one armoured car platoon and one motorized platoon each) and should be detached towards both flank to reconnoiter and maintain contact with the neighbour units, the 13 Pz Div to the east and the infantry divisions to the west.
The source is the book "from Caucasus to Leningrad". Tomo I. By Lt Col Marini. Circulo Militar. Buenos Aires.
Regards. Tigre.
Don river crossing.
In the spring the river Don basin had, at Rostov level, six kilometers wide; to the south of the city the river split up in three branchs, each 300 to 500 meters wide. Two lines (railway and road) linked Rostov with Bataisk. The railway embankment had 5 to 6 meters high running in a straight line from Rostov to Bataisk for almost 7 kilometers. The main road was 6 to 8 meters wide rising a few meters from the swampy area; it began 800 meters to the east of the railway, after a big bend crossed below the rail running aside it toward the south separate by roughly 10 meters.
On July 24, 1942, a few infantry battalions, belonging to the German 73 ID, were advancing slowly through the swamp and mud astride the railway embankment towards Bataisk. Late afternoon, this very day, those advanced Battalions launched an assault against the Bataisk’s edge but were rejected. Nevertheless the swampy area between the city of Rostov and Bataisk was mopped up. By nightfall the engineers started the works on the destroyed bridges.
On July 25, the enemy positions at Bataisk were shelled by at least 40 batteries (light and heavy ones), also aerial attacks were carried out with 36 stukas.
On July 26 some gebirgs jagers units could finally seize great part of Bataisk with the support furnished by artillery and dive bombers (stukas).
On July 28 the tanks and heavy vehicles could go across the river and the last resistance at Rostov itself was wiped out.
The SS "Wiking" march to the Caucasus.
While resting at Rostov, the division was reinforced and re-organized as follow:
Commander: Oberst Gille (SS AR 5).
Troops.
SS Nordland Regiment (less one battalion)
I / SS Germania Regiment.
SS Pz Abt 5.
1 Engineer company.
SS AR 5 ( with 3 groups, two of them with 2 batteries of 105 mm and 1 battery of 155 mm; the third with 1 battery of howitzers 105 mm and 1 battery of cannons 105 mm).
1 AA Abt ( with two batteries of 88 mm and one with cannons of 20 mm and 37 mm).
1 Reconnaissance company.
1 Pz Jager Abt.
Support units (communications, maintenance and supply).
The Kampfgruppe was, as well, split in three groups as follow:
1 Infantry battalion.
1 Artillery group.
Antitanks ( half to one company).
1 AA Platoon.
The bulk of the tanks, antitanks and AA guns should march with the Advance Guard; the engineers should march either with the Vanguard or the others groups as ruled the situation. Each group could be employed with independence if necessary.
The Reconnaissance company was, in turn, split in two half companies ( one armoured car platoon and one motorized platoon each) and should be detached towards both flank to reconnoiter and maintain contact with the neighbour units, the 13 Pz Div to the east and the infantry divisions to the west.
The source is the book "from Caucasus to Leningrad". Tomo I. By Lt Col Marini. Circulo Militar. Buenos Aires.
Regards. Tigre.
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
Re: SS-Infantry Division (mot.) "Wiking" in the Ca
Enclosed is some info in this regard:Schpam wrote:I've been reading Tieke's "The Caucasus and the Oil" and there is much about Wiking in it. So in an effort to learn some about this unit and looking around at http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de./Gl ... Wiking.htm I see that it supposedly had a Sturmgeschutz Abteilung. Is this true? Did it have any StuGs during the summer 1942 offensives? I haven't found a reference to any in Tieke's book so far.
I did do a forum search but I didn't find anything about an attached STuG unit.
R,
Paul
"At the beginning of January 1942, a brand new assault-gun battery arrived from Germany. It had been formed by the veteran former battery officer of the 11./Artillery-Regiment SS-Division "Wiking", SS-Oberststurmfuhrer Hermann Lange, and sent to the division... Immediately upon their arrival, the elements were thrown piecemeal into the blazing front. And it blazed in so many locations along the thinly held front! ...The combat -inexperienced assault-gun battery was immediately committed to repel a dangerous Soviet tank assault. However, it went into action without the infantry support of the I./SS-Infanterie-Regiment "Germania". In bitter fighting against far superior enemy tank forces, the battalion fell victim to the crushing weight numbers. SS-Obersturmfuhrer Lange was killed in the fighting. His successor, SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Boehmer who came from SS-Panzerjaeger-Abteilung "Wiking", was also killed in the fighting. As a result of these detachments, the weakened Kampfgruppe Diekmann stood alone in the heart of the fighting. In the process, it was decimated... In April 1942, all of its (assault gun battery) personnel and equipment was transferred to the SS-Division Leibstandarte-SS "Adolf Hitler", which was in the Taganrog area at that time..."
Source: Peter Strassner, European Volunteers. The 5.SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking"
![:[]](./images/smilies/icon_study.gif "Study"){kind=icon}
As known, beaten Nazi used to explain their defeats either by unsuitable terrain (terrible mud & terrible below -40Ç frost) or by "crushing weight numbers". So, if we shed these rhetorics one can see that in January 1942 the "Wiking"s assault-gun battery suffered some painful defeats and both their commander and his successor were killed in action by the Soviet army.
Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
Here is what Peter Strassner says about this issue:Marko wrote:A Stug.Bttr. was formed in 1941 but was then disbanded prior to the Caucassus campaign. There were no organic Stugs with the division in Op. Blau.
"On Sunday, 27 September 1942, SS-Infanterie-Regiment "Nordland" opened the attack by moving against the high ground of the Maglobek ridge. It made only slow progress. The opposing Soviet assualt brigade resisted fanatically. Its soldiers had dug up to their noses and fought desperately. The I./SS-Infanterie-Regiment "Nordland" suffered heavy casualties. The Company Commander of the 3./SS-Infanterie-Regiment "Nordland", SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Bluhm, was killed. He was followed in death by the commander of the 2./SS-Infanterie-Regiment "Nordland". Losses among officers increased. Adjutants and special-duty officers jumped into the breach. The assault-gun battalion could only provide limited support, since its firing positions were on the high ridge and the Sturmgeschuetze could not reach the forward edge of the slopes. By 15.00 hours, the battalion was bogged down. The Battalion Adjutant, SS-Obersturmfuhrer Thoeny, tried to rally his forces."
Source: Peter Strassner, European Volunteers. The 5.SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking", PP.140
So, as one can see the Wiking's Sturmgeschuetze Assault-Gun Abteilung was there during the fighting in the Caucasus but didn't succeed much in these combats.
Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
From Rostov to the Caucasus
Hello folks, the SS Wiking keep going....
Kampfgruppe “GILLE”.
It had the mission of “ To advance faster towards south, pushing the enemy troops to the southwest and in doing so to avoid the enemy withdrawal to the southeast”. Contact with the 13 Pz Div should be maintained all over the operation.
On July 27 at 16:40 hours the commander issued the march order, it should start at 19:00 hours but at the last moment was changed for the next morning, 28 July 1942 at 04:00 hours.
As it was ordered,the Kampfgruppe left its bivouac located at the west edge of the city and moved on towards the center of Rostov where was deviated to a readiness area by the feldgendarmerie, because the bridge was damaged by the tanks crossing. The Kampfgruppe got across the river Don on July 28 at 15:30 hours under strong AA protection with one distance between vehicles of 10 meters; when the leading elements reached the town of Bataisk, turned off on the left (the distance between vehicles was increased up to 50 meters) and after marching around 55 kilometers turned off on the south; there the vanguard (one tank squadron with half infantry company mounted on it) met weak russian resistance.
At Volno Verschinskij the vanguard repulsed an enemy force organized with one motorized company, some cavalry squadrons and up to two light batteries of artillery. By nightfall the advance group took an all-round position at the town of Volno Verschinskij, the vanguard did the same some 2 to 2,5 kilometers ahead; the Reconnaissance company was reunited inside the position. The others march group set up its hedgehod positions to the northwest.
Unknown to the Kampfgruppe, the enemy was occupying positions at one hill located roughly 8 kilometers south of the town, behind a stream tributary of the river Kagalnik covering the road to Bielaia Glina (white Mud).
The Kampfgruppe took many security measures, few survey measures and none of reconnaissance so the next day would pay it with blood.
Source: "From Caucasus to Leningrad". Tomo I. By Lt Col Marini. Circulo Militar. Buenos Aires.
Regards. Tigre.
Kampfgruppe “GILLE”.
It had the mission of “ To advance faster towards south, pushing the enemy troops to the southwest and in doing so to avoid the enemy withdrawal to the southeast”. Contact with the 13 Pz Div should be maintained all over the operation.
On July 27 at 16:40 hours the commander issued the march order, it should start at 19:00 hours but at the last moment was changed for the next morning, 28 July 1942 at 04:00 hours.
As it was ordered,the Kampfgruppe left its bivouac located at the west edge of the city and moved on towards the center of Rostov where was deviated to a readiness area by the feldgendarmerie, because the bridge was damaged by the tanks crossing. The Kampfgruppe got across the river Don on July 28 at 15:30 hours under strong AA protection with one distance between vehicles of 10 meters; when the leading elements reached the town of Bataisk, turned off on the left (the distance between vehicles was increased up to 50 meters) and after marching around 55 kilometers turned off on the south; there the vanguard (one tank squadron with half infantry company mounted on it) met weak russian resistance.
At Volno Verschinskij the vanguard repulsed an enemy force organized with one motorized company, some cavalry squadrons and up to two light batteries of artillery. By nightfall the advance group took an all-round position at the town of Volno Verschinskij, the vanguard did the same some 2 to 2,5 kilometers ahead; the Reconnaissance company was reunited inside the position. The others march group set up its hedgehod positions to the northwest.
Unknown to the Kampfgruppe, the enemy was occupying positions at one hill located roughly 8 kilometers south of the town, behind a stream tributary of the river Kagalnik covering the road to Bielaia Glina (white Mud).
The Kampfgruppe took many security measures, few survey measures and none of reconnaissance so the next day would pay it with blood.
Source: "From Caucasus to Leningrad". Tomo I. By Lt Col Marini. Circulo Militar. Buenos Aires.
Regards. Tigre.
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
From Rostov to the Caucasus
Hello to all, a little more.
29 July 1942.
At dawn the hedgehog was surprised by the fire of heavy russian weapon, the enemy rear guards approached up to 1 kilometer south of the advanced positions and the german soldiers were awoke suddenly with machine guns, mortars and cannons fire. After a few minutes the infantrymen answered the fire, the tanks crew were inside of his vehicles with the engines roaring and the commanders could regain the control.
The hedgehog was dissolved and the infantry companies, together with the tanks and supported by the artillery, were charging against the enemy . The russian rear guard withdrew step by step towards the main positions (the hill located 8 kilometers to the south) where the resistance stiffened up and the assault stalled.
Standarten Fuhrer Gille alarmed the others march groups putting them in motion in order to combine efforts with the advance group; in that way, nine batteries supported the attack carried out by the SS Pz Abt. 5 and the I./ SS Nordland Regiment which moved onwards in broad front trying to find either the enemy flanks or weak points on the defensive position.
Under this new thread, the russian units withdrew around 08:30 hours establishing new defensive positions roughly 22 kilometers to the south at the north edge of Metchetinskaia, as was known later.
The vanguard pushed southwards without changing its deployment, together with two tanks squadron which advanced forwards with mounted riflemen. Behind, 1 or 2 kilometers, followed a third tank squadron, the bulk of the infantry battalion and the artillery group.
At noon, before reaching the village of Rakitni, the vanguard was fired upon with light weapon and artillery so the morning scheme was adopted again. Immediately one infantry battalion was deployed which was followed by tanks, the artillery took up fire positions and the others battalions were in readiness for joining the assault. One hour later the enemy left the town, but seemingly a few hostile riflemen remained there and opened fire when the first german soldiers arrived.
Standarten Fuhrer Gille ordered then that the advance guard surpassed the village and established a hedgehog 3 kilometers to the south close to Mechetinskaia. The others two groups should carry out mopping up operations in the town (Rakitni) and then should proceed towards Mechetinskaia where all-round positions should be established. On this day the Kampfgruppe advanced only 35 kilometers in straight line. The half Reconnaissance company detached to the east got in contact with units of the 1º Pz Army which was crossing the river Manytsch in its southward movement.
Pressed forward between the Don and the Kubán - Jul 1942.
Source: "From Caucasus to Leningrad". Tomo I. By Lt Col Marini. Circulo Militar. Buenos Aires.
Photo taken from: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... Abt5-R.htm
Regards. Tigre.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
29 July 1942.
At dawn the hedgehog was surprised by the fire of heavy russian weapon, the enemy rear guards approached up to 1 kilometer south of the advanced positions and the german soldiers were awoke suddenly with machine guns, mortars and cannons fire. After a few minutes the infantrymen answered the fire, the tanks crew were inside of his vehicles with the engines roaring and the commanders could regain the control.
The hedgehog was dissolved and the infantry companies, together with the tanks and supported by the artillery, were charging against the enemy . The russian rear guard withdrew step by step towards the main positions (the hill located 8 kilometers to the south) where the resistance stiffened up and the assault stalled.
Standarten Fuhrer Gille alarmed the others march groups putting them in motion in order to combine efforts with the advance group; in that way, nine batteries supported the attack carried out by the SS Pz Abt. 5 and the I./ SS Nordland Regiment which moved onwards in broad front trying to find either the enemy flanks or weak points on the defensive position.
Under this new thread, the russian units withdrew around 08:30 hours establishing new defensive positions roughly 22 kilometers to the south at the north edge of Metchetinskaia, as was known later.
The vanguard pushed southwards without changing its deployment, together with two tanks squadron which advanced forwards with mounted riflemen. Behind, 1 or 2 kilometers, followed a third tank squadron, the bulk of the infantry battalion and the artillery group.
At noon, before reaching the village of Rakitni, the vanguard was fired upon with light weapon and artillery so the morning scheme was adopted again. Immediately one infantry battalion was deployed which was followed by tanks, the artillery took up fire positions and the others battalions were in readiness for joining the assault. One hour later the enemy left the town, but seemingly a few hostile riflemen remained there and opened fire when the first german soldiers arrived.
Standarten Fuhrer Gille ordered then that the advance guard surpassed the village and established a hedgehog 3 kilometers to the south close to Mechetinskaia. The others two groups should carry out mopping up operations in the town (Rakitni) and then should proceed towards Mechetinskaia where all-round positions should be established. On this day the Kampfgruppe advanced only 35 kilometers in straight line. The half Reconnaissance company detached to the east got in contact with units of the 1º Pz Army which was crossing the river Manytsch in its southward movement.
Pressed forward between the Don and the Kubán - Jul 1942.
Source: "From Caucasus to Leningrad". Tomo I. By Lt Col Marini. Circulo Militar. Buenos Aires.
Photo taken from: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... Abt5-R.htm
Regards. Tigre.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.
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John Hilly
- Supporter
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 1:48 am
- Location: Tampere, Finland, Europe
Wiking's StuGs
Some comments about the subject:
I have read that the first StuGAbt of the Wiking had to given away almost immediately, to LSSAH, I presume. Unfortunately I don’t remember the source.
StuGAbt's first encounter
“The Russians started a strong counter attack in the end of January 1942 from Donets towards the industrial area of Don starting from Izyum to the areas of Grishino-Stalino and Losowaja-Dnepropetrowsk. The German 17. Army took troops from the Mius-front for confrontation to these attacks. Troops included the seasoned veterans of the I. /Germania, a supporting battery from SS-AR 5 and the pride of the Division, the newly established Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung commanded by Hptm Böhmer. It was, as Igor has told us before, almost completely destroyed by overwhelming Russian Panzergruppe, the commander being killed."
New equipment
"In June 1942 the SS-PzJgAbt got new 75 mm guns - and - one Company of 75 mm Selbstfahrtlafette, or self-propelled guns, Marder IIs. From the remnants of the StuGAbt and the I. /Germania - through refitting and training new personnel - a divisional StuGBatterie was formed.” Because of its nature - being part of AR 5, it is not mentioned in the statistics of the PzAbt 5 or PzJgAbt 5.
Malgobek, 15.10.1942:
“This last attack started, according to the KTB of the Finnish Battalion, in the morning of the 15th of October, when two battalions, Battalion Diekmann (I. /Germania) - obviously in the right flank - and Battalion Nickel (IR 70) strengthened by the 9. /Germania advanced towards the hills 694 and 701. The attackers were supported by four Nebelwerferbatterei, four StuGs (must have been remnants of the StuGBatterie, not Marders), and the Engineer battalion of the IR 70…”
Weapons handed over to the SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Bataillon NARWA:
“On the 12.4.1943 die finnisches Freiwilligen Bataillon der SS got orders to prepare weapons and equipment ready forä handing over.
After two and a half days of heavy cleaning and registration, the process could be started on the 14.4. so, that the motor vehicles of the battalion were ähanded over to the SS-Nordland. Instead, all weapons and equipment, even rifles (605 pcs) and side arms (122 pcs), were to be given to the SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Bataillon NARWA, which was arriving to the front. The exact catalogues - reflecting the German thoroughness - have remained as appendixes in the KTB of the III. (finn.) / SS-Nordland. There were actually more weapons at store than men to put to the front lines. Man can think that the Finns were pleasant to give the familiar weapons to the hands of the brother countrymen.”
Heavier weapons consisted of:
· 61 lMGs
· 12 sMGs
· 6 8,1 cm mortars
· 3 5,0 cm mortars
· 4 5,0 cm Paks
· 4 7,5 cm lIGs
The Finnish Battalion didn’t have Flak of their own, but they always had some attached from the SS-FlakAbt 5.
By the way, the existence and units of the StuGs isn’t easily being proved. For example in battles around Proletarskaja in January 1943 there were at least two independent StuG-Abteilungs taking part: StuGAbt 203 and StuGAbt 243, which were easily thought to be the ones of the SS-Wiking.
Source: Jokipii, Mauno, “Panttipataljoona”, the history of the Finnish SS-Battalion. Tapiola 1968.
With best
Juha
I have read that the first StuGAbt of the Wiking had to given away almost immediately, to LSSAH, I presume. Unfortunately I don’t remember the source.
StuGAbt's first encounter
“The Russians started a strong counter attack in the end of January 1942 from Donets towards the industrial area of Don starting from Izyum to the areas of Grishino-Stalino and Losowaja-Dnepropetrowsk. The German 17. Army took troops from the Mius-front for confrontation to these attacks. Troops included the seasoned veterans of the I. /Germania, a supporting battery from SS-AR 5 and the pride of the Division, the newly established Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung commanded by Hptm Böhmer. It was, as Igor has told us before, almost completely destroyed by overwhelming Russian Panzergruppe, the commander being killed."
New equipment
"In June 1942 the SS-PzJgAbt got new 75 mm guns - and - one Company of 75 mm Selbstfahrtlafette, or self-propelled guns, Marder IIs. From the remnants of the StuGAbt and the I. /Germania - through refitting and training new personnel - a divisional StuGBatterie was formed.” Because of its nature - being part of AR 5, it is not mentioned in the statistics of the PzAbt 5 or PzJgAbt 5.
Malgobek, 15.10.1942:
“This last attack started, according to the KTB of the Finnish Battalion, in the morning of the 15th of October, when two battalions, Battalion Diekmann (I. /Germania) - obviously in the right flank - and Battalion Nickel (IR 70) strengthened by the 9. /Germania advanced towards the hills 694 and 701. The attackers were supported by four Nebelwerferbatterei, four StuGs (must have been remnants of the StuGBatterie, not Marders), and the Engineer battalion of the IR 70…”
Weapons handed over to the SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Bataillon NARWA:
“On the 12.4.1943 die finnisches Freiwilligen Bataillon der SS got orders to prepare weapons and equipment ready forä handing over.
After two and a half days of heavy cleaning and registration, the process could be started on the 14.4. so, that the motor vehicles of the battalion were ähanded over to the SS-Nordland. Instead, all weapons and equipment, even rifles (605 pcs) and side arms (122 pcs), were to be given to the SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Bataillon NARWA, which was arriving to the front. The exact catalogues - reflecting the German thoroughness - have remained as appendixes in the KTB of the III. (finn.) / SS-Nordland. There were actually more weapons at store than men to put to the front lines. Man can think that the Finns were pleasant to give the familiar weapons to the hands of the brother countrymen.”
Heavier weapons consisted of:
· 61 lMGs
· 12 sMGs
· 6 8,1 cm mortars
· 3 5,0 cm mortars
· 4 5,0 cm Paks
· 4 7,5 cm lIGs
The Finnish Battalion didn’t have Flak of their own, but they always had some attached from the SS-FlakAbt 5.
By the way, the existence and units of the StuGs isn’t easily being proved. For example in battles around Proletarskaja in January 1943 there were at least two independent StuG-Abteilungs taking part: StuGAbt 203 and StuGAbt 243, which were easily thought to be the ones of the SS-Wiking.
Source: Jokipii, Mauno, “Panttipataljoona”, the history of the Finnish SS-Battalion. Tapiola 1968.
With best
Juha
“Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch !!“
It seems I'll have to do a better job presenting my arguments.
Another possible explanation for the Stugs (besides the possible confusion with Marders) is of course, like you mentioned too, a subordinated Stug.Abt. Looking in Kurowski/Tornau there was indeed one such unit in the sector supporting 111.Inf.Div. (the unit adjacent to SS-Wiking and which also participated in the attack on Malgobek [sic]) - Stug.Abt.191. Unfortunately the book doesn't give further details on Abt. actions.
Marko
This is not correct, as this was Stug.bttr. and Hstuf. Böhmer was the battery's commander.StuGAbt's first encounter
If this is from the source mentioned bellow, this is again not correct. Stug.bttr. wasn't formed from Stug.Abt. as the latter didn't exist. Like already mentioned the battery was effectively dissolved in early 1942 and its remains were sent to Germany were they were integrated into the forming Stug.Abt. of the LSSAH as the 2nd battery. As for the subordination under Art.Rgt., this was nothing exceptional, you'll find the same examples in Totenkopf and SS-Reich divisions. LSSAH had a bit different organization - Stugs and PzJäg. were organized under Abt.Schönberg.From the remnants of the StuGAbt and the I. /Germania - through refitting and training new personnel - a divisional StuGBatterie was formed.” Because of its nature - being part of AR 5, it is not mentioned in the statistics of the PzAbt 5 or PzJgAbt 5.
So for a time frame of nearly a year there's only one single mention of four Stugs from a Stug.Abt. supporting an infantry attack. Sorry, but I just don't buy this, not even subordination under Art.Rgt. can't explain the apparent lack of info on this unit.“This last attack started, according to the KTB of the Finnish Battalion, in the morning of the 15th of October, when two battalions, Battalion Diekmann (I. /Germania) - obviously in the right flank - and Battalion Nickel (IR 70) strengthened by the 9. /Germania advanced towards the hills 694 and 701. The attackers were supported by four Nebelwerferbatterei, four StuGs (must have been remnants of the StuGBatterie, not Marders), and the Engineer battalion of the IR 70…”
Another possible explanation for the Stugs (besides the possible confusion with Marders) is of course, like you mentioned too, a subordinated Stug.Abt. Looking in Kurowski/Tornau there was indeed one such unit in the sector supporting 111.Inf.Div. (the unit adjacent to SS-Wiking and which also participated in the attack on Malgobek [sic]) - Stug.Abt.191. Unfortunately the book doesn't give further details on Abt. actions.
Marko
-
John Hilly
- Supporter
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 1:48 am
- Location: Tampere, Finland, Europe
Wiking StuGs
Thanks for your comments, Marko!
My source, in Finnish, use a term with different meanings. So, I've obviously translated the word "osasto" as Abtelung but it could also be translated as a detachment, or battery. Sorry for the mistake.
Let's keep on studying more, okey?
With best
Juha
My source, in Finnish, use a term with different meanings. So, I've obviously translated the word "osasto" as Abtelung but it could also be translated as a detachment, or battery. Sorry for the mistake.
Let's keep on studying more, okey?
With best
Juha
“Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch !!“
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Guys,
It should be pointed out that in its initial advance into the Caucasus the Wiking, like the Slovak Rapid Division and the Romanian Cavalry Corps, made rapid advances because they were pushing at an open door. Further north and east of them, the German Army had made major breakthroughs and advances that completely unhinged the Soviet defences of the Caucasus based on Rostov.
Stalin issued his "Not a Step Back" order, but the local Red Army commanders wisely ignored it and ordered their divisions to fall back on the more defensible Caucasus Mountains. These divisions were almost all on foot. Yet not one of them was lost despite retreating several hundred kilometres pursued by assorted Axis mechanised and horsed divisions over open terrain that failed to pull off a major encirclement against them as intended. They then successfully turned and defended the Caucasus Mountain line.
Thus the advance the Wiking took part in July-August 1942 was not strongly opposed and failed in its declared aims of destroying the Soviet rifle divisions in the north Caucasus and seizing oil fields intact.
This doesn't preclude the Wiking having performed well, but its over all mission failed, as did its subsequent attempt to break through the Caucasus Mountains to the Black Sea. The real victors here were hard marching Soviet infantry, who retained cohesion under very difficult conditions.
Cheers,
Sid.
It should be pointed out that in its initial advance into the Caucasus the Wiking, like the Slovak Rapid Division and the Romanian Cavalry Corps, made rapid advances because they were pushing at an open door. Further north and east of them, the German Army had made major breakthroughs and advances that completely unhinged the Soviet defences of the Caucasus based on Rostov.
Stalin issued his "Not a Step Back" order, but the local Red Army commanders wisely ignored it and ordered their divisions to fall back on the more defensible Caucasus Mountains. These divisions were almost all on foot. Yet not one of them was lost despite retreating several hundred kilometres pursued by assorted Axis mechanised and horsed divisions over open terrain that failed to pull off a major encirclement against them as intended. They then successfully turned and defended the Caucasus Mountain line.
Thus the advance the Wiking took part in July-August 1942 was not strongly opposed and failed in its declared aims of destroying the Soviet rifle divisions in the north Caucasus and seizing oil fields intact.
This doesn't preclude the Wiking having performed well, but its over all mission failed, as did its subsequent attempt to break through the Caucasus Mountains to the Black Sea. The real victors here were hard marching Soviet infantry, who retained cohesion under very difficult conditions.
Cheers,
Sid.
From Rostov to the Caucasus.
Hello folks. The story goes on.
30 July 1942.
On July 30 the advance march group was relieved by another group and the Kampfgruppe proceeded its march at 05:00 hours. This time the nature and fuel shortage delayed the movements; to the west was advancing slowly the 198 ID and to the east the 1º Pz Army with its yield diminished due to fuel shortage.
This day hostile cavalry cut short the supply line, so on Standarten Fuhrer Gille’s orders the rear group moved back to Jegorlikskaia, in order to reject the russian toward west and re-open the way to Rostov. During 30 and 31 Jul the Kampfgruppe should stop due to lack of fuel. The vanguard south of Jegorlik, the second march group northwest of that town and the rear group warding the road to Rostov west of Jegorlikskaia.
On August 01, after refueling, the Kampfgruppe advanced forward again. The rear group was attacked suddenly with light weapons, the riflemen detrucked, deployed and after a short fire fight captured more than 100 russian soldiers, losing one dead and 3 wounded, the artillery abteilung commanding officer among them.
At noon, Standarten Fuhrer Gille was informed (recce plane) that Bielaia Glina was occupied by the enemy, seemingly the same russian group that delayed him before so he decided annihilate them this time.
The attack on Bielaia Glina (White Mud).
On 01 Aug, at 13:00 hours Standarten Fuhrer Gille issued the following order:
The vanguard group, should attack Bielaia Glina from the north supported by one tank squadron, its own artillery abteilung plus the second group’s heavy battery, in order to engage the russian forces avoiding its withdrawal. Also the enemy should be deceived about the main effort.
The second group with the bulk of the SS Pz Abt 5 and two artillery batteries should carry out a flanking movement and hit the russian from the flank and rear (south and southwest).
The rear group should reinforce the attack from the north.
The two half recon companies should reconnoiter both flanks of the defensive position at Bielaia Glina toward east - southeast and west - southwest in order to avoid any surprise.
The reconnaissance confirmed that the defense was confined in the town. When the attack coming from the north reached up to 1000 meters from the enemy positions. The second group started its movement. At this very moment arrived the third group so Standarten Fuhrer Gille told the commanding officer that should advance immediately toward Bielaia Glina with the infantry battalion as if they were reinforced the frontal attack.
However the enemy could see the flanking movement due to the clouds of dust raised by the tanks moving at great speed and some units began to withdraw. Two tank platoons with some heavy weapons, were detached to protect the group’s rear and were deployed on the roads leading to Novopokrovskaia and Novopavlovskaia. The artillery batteries took up fire position at 1000 meters to the southwest of Bielaia Glina and fired some shells against the houses on the town’s edge, also some vehicles fleing to the south were destroyed. 100 meters before the town’s edge the riflemen dismounted and launched the assault entering the village almost without resistance. Around the half of the infantry (400 to 500 men) and all the artillery were captured. Among the vehicles there were great number of american trucks, some landser wanted to send one telegram of gratitude to Mr Rooseveld; Standarten Fuhrer Gille refused the idea because the notice could cut short the Uncle Sam’s trucks to the Wiking through his russian ally.
The fight lasted almost three hours and around 17:00 hours Bielaia Glina was cleared of russian troops. The inhabitants offered salt and bread to the commander and his officers, also a group of old cossacks paid a visit to Standarten Fuhrer Gille with uniforms and medals earned in the Zar period.
Source: "From Caucasus to Leningrad". Tomo I. By Lt Col Marini. Circulo Militar. Buenos Aires.
Regards. Tigre.
30 July 1942.
On July 30 the advance march group was relieved by another group and the Kampfgruppe proceeded its march at 05:00 hours. This time the nature and fuel shortage delayed the movements; to the west was advancing slowly the 198 ID and to the east the 1º Pz Army with its yield diminished due to fuel shortage.
This day hostile cavalry cut short the supply line, so on Standarten Fuhrer Gille’s orders the rear group moved back to Jegorlikskaia, in order to reject the russian toward west and re-open the way to Rostov. During 30 and 31 Jul the Kampfgruppe should stop due to lack of fuel. The vanguard south of Jegorlik, the second march group northwest of that town and the rear group warding the road to Rostov west of Jegorlikskaia.
On August 01, after refueling, the Kampfgruppe advanced forward again. The rear group was attacked suddenly with light weapons, the riflemen detrucked, deployed and after a short fire fight captured more than 100 russian soldiers, losing one dead and 3 wounded, the artillery abteilung commanding officer among them.
At noon, Standarten Fuhrer Gille was informed (recce plane) that Bielaia Glina was occupied by the enemy, seemingly the same russian group that delayed him before so he decided annihilate them this time.
The attack on Bielaia Glina (White Mud).
On 01 Aug, at 13:00 hours Standarten Fuhrer Gille issued the following order:
The vanguard group, should attack Bielaia Glina from the north supported by one tank squadron, its own artillery abteilung plus the second group’s heavy battery, in order to engage the russian forces avoiding its withdrawal. Also the enemy should be deceived about the main effort.
The second group with the bulk of the SS Pz Abt 5 and two artillery batteries should carry out a flanking movement and hit the russian from the flank and rear (south and southwest).
The rear group should reinforce the attack from the north.
The two half recon companies should reconnoiter both flanks of the defensive position at Bielaia Glina toward east - southeast and west - southwest in order to avoid any surprise.
The reconnaissance confirmed that the defense was confined in the town. When the attack coming from the north reached up to 1000 meters from the enemy positions. The second group started its movement. At this very moment arrived the third group so Standarten Fuhrer Gille told the commanding officer that should advance immediately toward Bielaia Glina with the infantry battalion as if they were reinforced the frontal attack.
However the enemy could see the flanking movement due to the clouds of dust raised by the tanks moving at great speed and some units began to withdraw. Two tank platoons with some heavy weapons, were detached to protect the group’s rear and were deployed on the roads leading to Novopokrovskaia and Novopavlovskaia. The artillery batteries took up fire position at 1000 meters to the southwest of Bielaia Glina and fired some shells against the houses on the town’s edge, also some vehicles fleing to the south were destroyed. 100 meters before the town’s edge the riflemen dismounted and launched the assault entering the village almost without resistance. Around the half of the infantry (400 to 500 men) and all the artillery were captured. Among the vehicles there were great number of american trucks, some landser wanted to send one telegram of gratitude to Mr Rooseveld; Standarten Fuhrer Gille refused the idea because the notice could cut short the Uncle Sam’s trucks to the Wiking through his russian ally.
The fight lasted almost three hours and around 17:00 hours Bielaia Glina was cleared of russian troops. The inhabitants offered salt and bread to the commander and his officers, also a group of old cossacks paid a visit to Standarten Fuhrer Gille with uniforms and medals earned in the Zar period.
Source: "From Caucasus to Leningrad". Tomo I. By Lt Col Marini. Circulo Militar. Buenos Aires.
Regards. Tigre.
Serás lo que debas ser o no serás nada. General José de San Martín.