How many nations in ss

[Marko]

In Croatia proper (NDH minus Bosnia-Herzegovina) there were, by year, the following number of active Partizan forces in the field:
1941: 7,000
1942: 48,000
early 1943: 78,000
late 1943: 122,000
late 1944: 150,000

Hi croat!

Very high figures through all the war. Any idea how many of those were ethnic Serbs?

Best regards
Marko

[croat]

In Croatia proper (NDH minus Bosnia-Herzegovina) there were, by year, the following number of active Partizan forces in the field:
1941: 7,000
1942: 48,000
early 1943: 78,000
late 1943: 122,000
late 1944: 150,000

Hi croat!

Very high figures through all the war. Any idea how many of those were ethnic Serbs?

Best regards
Marko

Hi Marko:

In 1944, approximately 30% of the Croatian Partizans were ethnic Serbs.

Regards!

[Marko]

Thanks, croat.

The reason I asked is that I seem to recall Djilas (in Wartime) mentioning that there were mostly Serbs in the partisan formation in Croatia. I think the timeframe was 1943. But I might be wrong.

Marko

[croat]

Thanks, croat.

The reason I asked is that I seem to recall Djilas (in Wartime) mentioning that there were mostly Serbs in the partisan formation in Croatia. I think the timeframe was 1943. But I might be wrong.

Marko

Hi Marko:

Djilas' claim has been shown to be incorrect. More then likely part of the post-war campaign by Tito and his clique to discredit the Croatian Communist Party (Hebrang et al).

Regards!

[Marko]

Djilas' claim has been shown to be incorrect. More then likely part of the post-war campaign by Tito and his clique to discredit the Croatian Communist Party (Hebrang et al).

So if I understand you correctly there should also be some pre-1944 comparitive figures. Right? Cause this would certainly clear all my doubts.

Cheers
Marko

[croat]

Hi Marko:

In mid-late 1941 and early 1942, a majority of Croats still supported the HSS, and awaited action from Macek and the party's leadership with regards to resistance against the Ustase and the German/Italian occupiers (the brief euphoria over the declaration of Croatian "independence" on April 10, 1941 ended quickly with the surrender of Dalmatia and other areas of Croatia to Italy by the Ustase in May 1941 and the division of the state into German and Italian zones of control - it was recognized that the so-called NDH was really nothing more than a puppet). So in these early days, a great number of Partizans came from the Serb minority in Croatia, but certainly the Croatian Partizan units were far from exclusively Serb even then (many Serbs, especially from Dalmatia and Lika, joined the nationalist Cetnik movement, which collaborated with both the Italian and the German occupiers, instead of the Partizans). I note, for example, that the Communist Party of Croatia was the largest in number within the Communist Party of Yugoslavia (4,500 out of 12,000), and that the very first Partizan unit (odred) in Sisak was founded on June 22, 1941, and consisted of 39 Croats.

By mid 1942, support for the NDH was at perhaps 15% amongst the Croats, as many patriotic Croatians realized that the NDH was a sham rather than the sovereign state they dreamed of. At the same time, the HSS also began to lose the support of the people, as the "sit around and wait" attitude of Macek and the leadership was simply not acceptable under the circumstances of the time (the Ustase pogroms of Serbs, Jews and Roma, the surrender of Croatian land to Italy and Hungary, the powerless statelet that the Ustase had created which was a slave to German and Italian interests etc.). The only remaining possibility was Tito's Partizan movement, which the Croatians began to massively support. Those who were unable to move to liberated territories and take up arms due to being called-up by the NDH Domobranstvo resisted the Ustase by desertion, poor battlefield performance, mass surrender of weapons to the Partizans etc. By early 1943, a majority of Partizans under arms in Croatia were Croats, with an enormous number of NDH citizens supporting the anti-fascist movement in other ways.

Figures in support of the above can be found in a number of excellent books written within the past 15 years, based on archival information previously unavailable. Unfortunately, many are not yet available in the English language. Do you read/understand Croatian?

Best regards!

[Handzar]

"13th Waffen Gebirgs Division (Handschar Division) Strength 12700"


Where did you find this, Daniel?

Handschar was 16.000 strong after the desertions, if you only counted the Bosnians, it would be 16.000+3.000 Germans and others. It was bigger than Prinz Eugen by 65 men at one point, which made it the biggest SS Division ever formed at 21.065.

You can't trust the internet!

[Helmut Von Moltke]

"13th Waffen Gebirgs Division (Handschar Division) Strength 12700"


Where did you get this nonsense , Lauerent Daniel???
Handschar was 16.000 strong after the desertions, if you only counted the Bosnians, it would be 16.000+3.000 Germans and others.
It was bigger than Prinz Eugen by 65 men at one point, which made it the biggest SS Division ever formed at 21.065.

Seriously, I am going to keep correcting you until you get this correctly.
You can't trust the internet!

hmm, and what are your sources then for this new figure?

[Laurent Daniel]

Peace
Note: Mods can delete, thanks

[Handzar]

"Himmler's Bosnian Division"
Everyone knows that the SS Division only reached 21.065 strength, if you subtract the German personnel that's 18.000 Bosnians. 2.000 Croats and rest are Germans.

[Marko]

Hi croat!

Thanks for that, much appreciated !
I do generally agree with what you've written though I would still like to learn more about the subject. I'd be grateful if you could list any well reserched books and I don't think I'll have too much problems with Croatian language .

Marko

[sid guttridge]

Hi Croat,

So, as I suspected, there were not more Croats in the partisan forces than in the NDH forces.

Thanks for the statistics.

Cheers,

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

A few stats:

At the end of 1944 there were still 209,000 men in the combined Croat armed forces and some 30,000 serving in German-sponsored legionary divisions. Partisan numbers across the whole of Yugoslavia (not just Croats) only surpassed the armed forces of the Croat state after nation-wide conscription was reintroduced in liberated areas in late 1944.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

only surpassed the armed forces of the Croat state after nation-wide conscription was reintroduced in liberated areas in late 1944.

I'm not sure I would call the capture of territories by Tito's partisans "liberation", considering what they did at Bleiburg, etc.

[sid guttridge]

Hi HvM,

Bleiberg happened in May 1945. I was talking of "late 1944", at a point where most parts of the NDH had not been over run, and those parts that had were mostly Moslem or Serb and had no desire to be part of the NDH.

Liberation is, indeed, a relative concept. On the whole, the end of the Axis occupation, which had cost all Yugoslavs a combined 1,000,000+ dead, was welcomed at the time. What is more, it had been achieved with limited direct outside intervention. The Red Army, for example, suffered "only" 7,000 dead in Yugoslavia, had only campaigned across the northern part of Serbia over September-December 1944 and had left Yugoslav soil by early 1945.

Cheers,

Sid.