Ironic beginnings

[Michael N. Ryan]

While exchanging posts with Sid on an unrelated matter I came to an interesting set of thoughts I wish to share.

It is that German and American militery traditions pretty much begain at the same time around the Seven Years war when Prussia took the field and Ameirca was thirteen little colonies.

Prussia was a client of Britain while we were Britain's colonies. Technically we were allies.

We both got much of our supplies, powder and muskets, purchased from Holland and Liege. We both required heavy British subsidies to maintain our fighting forces.

Britain allowed the fighting to take place in America for two years while doing what it could to diplomaticly protect Hannover before formally going to war with France.

In 1755 America suffered Braddock's disaster at Monongehelia while scoring victories over French forces around Lake George and Fort Beausejour with forces primarily consisting of American militia.

While Frederich the Great and the Prussian army were campaigning throughout Northern Europe, American Colonial troops were fighting thoughout North America.

Ironicly we were able to fight a revolution afteward where the Prussians could barely rattle their sabers during the Bavarian crisis around the same time.

We all know that it was von Steuben who taught the American soldiers drill at Valley forge after the defeats of Brandywine and Germantown. With these lessons American soldiers could fight in the open field which helped defeat the British at Monmouth and Cowpens.Ironicly it was the former Hessian officer Scharnhorst who had faught in the American revolution who rebuilt the Prussian army after the defeat of Jena, creating the force that would establish Prussia as a militery force. While German nationalists were inspired by America pulling its thirteen seperate parts together to form a nation.

Would anyone care to share their thoughts on this?

I doubt Patton ever thought about it.

[UK Lightgunner]

http://web2.unt.edu/news/story.cfm?story=8627
Here`s something for you to get your teeth into, Mr Ryan,and written by Americans who bother to do some research.
As they say,`History is written by the victor`,how true,Enjoy!

[Michael N. Ryan]

It has been my bitter experience that those engaged in 'Myth Debunking' will engage in making myths of their own.

1. Braddock got himself and his command killed through his own arrogant stupidity. Rene Chartrand has written and published a most informative book on the subject published by Osprey.

The Battle of Lake George was France's own version.

I would say the American colonials acquitted themselves quite well.

2. Washington aspired to a Crown Commission, hence his preference to mimic. He tried to get his own troops to copy during his failed defense of Fort Necessity. When organizing the Continental army he had to work from experience. All of which came while serving with the British army.

3. Lexington/Concord, Trenton, Princeton and Saratoga speak firmly on American tactics. Bunker Hill can even be described as an ambush. Luring the British out. Gage's victory taking it proved costly enough to ruin his force from taking the field. Cowpens and Guilford Courthouse can be seen in the same light when the linear and gurilla tactics were combined. Like Bunker Hill, Guilford Courthouse was certainly a defeat, but victories like that crippled the British armies in the field.

The battle of Germantown failed with the American offense collapsed in on itself. Many soldiers ran out of ammunition during the battle. Still, it did put a stop to any futher campigning by Howe.

I would say that the fast moving American Light soldier did quite well.
Green and Ill diciplined militias failed many times such s New York, but when filled with combat experienced men in the ranks and lead by competent commanders, they did quite well such as Concord/Lexinton and Bennington. Ironicly many of the men who commanded those little units were veterans of the Rangers. Many are actually described as having fired more rounds in the name of the King than whole regiments based in Boston. General Stark, whose services were: Bunker Hill, Trenton and Bennington was an associate of Robert Rogers.

Sometimes I wonder if many American commanders had inferiority complexes when it came to tactics. General St. Clair in his campain against the Shawnees, after the war, speaks for itself. He lost more soldiers than either Braddock or Custer.

Mad Anthony Wayne didn't have such problems. He crushed the Shawnees during his campain culminating in the Battle of Fallen Timbers.

Much of the campain against Amerindian tribes was done with the purpose of burning their villages and destroying their crops then leaving them to the mercy of winter. It got the job done.

Ironicly when Frederich the Great decided to organize his Light Forces and replace his Friekorps, he employed former Hessian officers seasoned in America to do the job.

These would be the ancestors of Germany's Storm Troopers and Paratroops.

[UK Lightgunner]

These would be the ancestors of Germany's Storm Troopers and Paratroops.

As would the British Army would have been the American Army`s ancestor,lets not forget George Washingtons family were BRITISH, (as were Benjamin Franklins) his ancestors being born in the North of England and if my memory serves me right his brother still had land there.
The rest of your post i wil come to later

[Michael N. Ryan]

And the British army can trace iteself back to the Extremist New Model Army of Oliver Cromwell.

Of course we could talk about the Rifle regiments that served Wellington so well. Perhaps starting with the 60th foot.

Of course I could go on with George Washington and Ben Franklin by pointing out that Britain's parliment and ruling elite did a really smashing job alienating them and everybody else in the Colonies.

The politics of the era are really quite facinating.

There was an era of joy and idealism after the French and Indian war that's really quite facinating.

Many Americans had ideas on What's Next once the Peace was signed.

Besides expansion westward into the territories of the Defeated Tribes many looked to Parliment. Thinking Direct Represenation.

You might say the difference between the Two groups that would eventually become Tories and Patriots in the US is that where the Tories looked to Parliment for Patronage and jobs, Patriots looked for seats. Franklin actually entertained joining the Cabinate.

For some reason Parliment balked.

Some claim that they read one of Franklin's studies on the Birthrate in the colonies. The average American women had twice as many children than her sisters in the British Isles. Infant Mortality was half that which it was in the British Isles. Thus every twenty years the population in America actually doubled without immigration.

They figured it was only a matter of time before America outpopulated them, and; they would have to shift power across the sea.

Then things got worse because soldiers who had gone over to America were either returning or writing friends and relatives and telling them how wonderful the place was. Many now chosing to immigrate. Of course, Parliment was being rather helpful with things like the Enclosure Acts which drove poor farmers off their land. Giving them the stark choice of Poverty in the Cities or take their chances in the New World.

So many chose to take their chances that there was a fear that Britain would be depopulated. Some actually suggested in Parliment that immigration should be either banned or restricted.

Ironicly in the Germanies the opposite was the situation. Most of the fighting had been there. Casualties. Disease. Famine. Refugees fleeing the carnage. Many resettled in America. Compounded by Frederich the Great's talent as a miltery butcher of his own armies, Population growth was actually set back and would take years to recover.

[Michael N. Ryan]

Sorry to omitt.

By the same logic, the German army has a British army heritage.

All those Waldeckins, Hessians, Ansbackians and Brunswickers, plus the mix crimped into regular British army battalions, plus those Hanoverians.

Quite the irony.

[UK Lightgunner]

http://www.britishbattles.com/index.htm
Have a quick look at this link Michael,it will give you some interesting facts about the British Army pre War of Independance and during,note the Seven year wars in Europe prior to the French/Indian War in North America and you can see how closely we worked with the Germans then,also,have a look at the numbers of troops involved and compare them to the battles of the War of Independance as there is a big difference.It doesnt gloryfy any battle or make any excuses for defeats,just gives a quick summary and if you are interested in that era i hope it will be of interest to you.
Your last post was very interesting and i will reply shortly.

Regards from the UK

[Michael N. Ryan]

It is an interesting sight but it leaves out some of the early parts of the eurpean campaign such as the fully German armies in British pay.

The French invasion of Hanover in 1757 comes to mind. They defeated a German army in British pay headed by the Duke of Cumberland, the fellow who crushed the forty five uprising at Culloden in Scotland.

So many Germans died in British service during this period I find myself wishing reference books should include them. Other than books on the American revolution most don't.

There's an interesting book on the subject INDENTURED TO LIBERTY by Peter K. Taylor. It has been some time since I read it.

[UK Lightgunner]

I see your surname is Ryan,Irish i take it which is where my Grandparents were from,have you researched any of your family tree at all?

[Michael N. Ryan]

Members of my family have done various bits of research.

On my father's side there's a bit of work that has been done though I haven't seen it. Relatively speaking his father's side were recent. His mother's side are Scots who come from the Carolinas and appear to have been there since their establishment, mixing with the natives.

On my mother's side there has been a great deal of research though I haven't seen it in a long time. My grandfather's people came from Frieseland during the 1870s. Grandmother's people came over from Wales in the 1690s. Among the people they intermixed with were a Dutch family who came over in the 1750s; settling not far from where I currently live. Which gives me an odd feeling whenever I pass a place that existed in their time.

This doesn't effect my views. Despite my paternal Grandmother's heritage, had I lived in the times of Bonnie Prince Charlie, I would have faught for Parliment and the House of Hanover. Had I lived in the times of his Grandfather I would have faught for Parliment and King William just as I would have faught for Parliment and Oliver Cromwell had I lived in the times of his great grandfather.