Panzer 3 ID help wanted

Ichi · Post by **Ichi** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:25 am

Okee i have been interested in WWII since i was a kid, mainly about the dutch soldiers who joined the waffen ss.

I would like to know more about panzers and what the marks/numbers mean.

For instance:

Those panzers have the odol rune on them, does that mean they are related to Dutch waffen SS?

Also the numbers the panzer 431, 424 etc what do those numbers mean?

For instance, the tanks in the pics above have "400" numbers

So does the tank below but it does not have the odol rune (at least not shown in this picture)

Does it mean they belong to the same division or...?

I came across those "wellknown" pics on the i-net and they interested me because of the odol rune.
The first 4 images were taken in russia. 1942 (at least thats what the site said)

I now close to nothing about panzers so every lil bit a info is more then welcome.

Thanks! Ichi

derGespenst · Post by **derGespenst** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:14 am

The odol rune shown was the tactical symbol of the 14th Panzer Division. The turret numbers indicate the tank's place in the battalion's organization in the order company/platoon/tank. Thus, 431 belongs to 4th company, 3rd platoon and is tank #1 in that platoon. In the second picture, you see a letter K on the left-hand tank indicating it belongs to 1st Panzergruppe (Kleist) during Operation Barbarossa. Note that the 4th company was the medium company in the battalions and are therefore equipped with Pz IVs.

Ichi · Post by **Ichi** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:49 am

Thanks a lot Gespenst, let me see if i get this right here.

So tanks 431 (first 4 images) and 432 (in the last image) both belong to the 4th company, 3rd platoon and are tank number 1 and 2

so this means they are indeed "related" to eachother like i thought?

hmmm unless they belong to different Panzer Divisions. So without Division tags it's pretty hard to tell where they belong to unless, if location and date are know and can be related to devisions who were there at such time and date... maybe not as easy as i thought afterall...

derGespenst · Post by **derGespenst** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:33 pm

That's correct - the numbering system was used by (almost) all divisions. Variations were sometimes used to fool te enemy and, occasionally, for divisional idiosyncracies.

In the third picture, I can't make out the tank numbers (maybe your original is clearer?) but because they are Pz IIIs, they will carry as a first number 1, 2 or 3 (or 5, 6, or 7 if they belong to the 2nd battalion of the regiment).

Ichi · Post by **Ichi** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:28 pm

The 3rd and 4th picture came from the same serie of foto's the two panzer 3's in the back in front of the white house are the tanks seen in the first 2 pictures. I didn't notice myself cus i got those pictures from different sources. I first noticed they belong together when i collected them cus they all featured the 14th devision odol rune.

Again, thanks a lot for your time and help here!

Pic number 5 doesnt seem to fit in because of the panzers color and the way the number (432) is placed on the tank, not painted but on a sign so it seems.

Also in that picture on the turret there might be somewhat of a black tiger or panther or something (inside the blue/greyish paint?) might just be my imagination though...

derGespenst · Post by **derGespenst** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:51 pm

Photos 3 and 4 are the same. These are NOT the same tanks as in the first two photos. The first two show Pz IVs, looks like the F-1 version with the short-barrelled gun and the G version with the long. Photos 3 and 4 are Pz III, probably G version with the short 50mm. Photo 5 looks like it was taken a year earlier. It appears to be a Pz IVD. the numbers on a separate plate look like 1939 or early 1940, as does the commander's uniform. The black animal you spotted (good eyes!) is a buffalo. I can't remeber which, but it was a regimental, not divisional symbol, if I remember correctly. I'll try to find it when I get home to my books.

Ichi · Post by **Ichi** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:17 pm

hmmm could have fooled me, panzer 423 (in the 2nd image) looks an awefull lot like the panzer in the 3rd and 4th picture on the right side of the picture...

Thanks 4 the lesson, perhaps my eyes aint that good afterall :P

derGespenst · Post by **derGespenst** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:20 pm

Easy to be fooled. 423 is a reasonably good close-up so that you can see the relative thickness of the gun and recognize it as a 75mm L24, even though the mouth is obscured. The 3rd & 4th photo show the entire barrel to good effect and it is clearly a smaller, longer gun. To my eye, it's a 50mm short (though it could be a 37mm - but I doubt it). In any event, it's no 75mm and the tank itself is clearly a Pz III.

derGespenst · Post by **derGespenst** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:50 pm

Ichi, I found the Buffalo symbol you saw in photo 5. It belonged to Panzer Regiment 7 of the 10th Panzer Division.

Ichi · Post by **Ichi** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:24 pm

Thanks for taking the time to help me understand this derGespenst!

Paul_9686 · Post by **Paul_9686** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:52 pm

Allow me to add that the tank viewed frontally in pics # 3 and 4 is a Panzer III with the 37mm gun. I can tell because it has the internal gun mantlet and two, not just one, co-axial machine guns.

Yours,
Paul