OPERATION SEA-LION

[von_noobie]

but if im not mistaken couldnt germany have defeated the RAF if they had from the start of the out break of war produce aircraft, tanks etc at war time standereds, not at peace time pace as they were through the fight against the RAF

werent the british in the end producing 4 fighters for every german fighter

[HoustonProblem]

WayFinder, remember that you have the benefit of hindsight.

Humanity is much, much, much more complicated than just playing the role of dupes in a couple of megalomaniac's plots. While you raise some interesting points, it doesn't go that smoothly, and remember that both Hitler and Stalin were only human, with all of our inherent weaknesses. One could point out Stalin's many mistakes too. World War Two was the tragic culmination of many things. Bottom line: in Europe, Hitler lost, and Stalin won - but it could have easily gone the other way.

[HoustonProblem]

von_noobie,

On the German side, their plans and strengths are available:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1145

There are other documents I've found in German publications.

The Kriegsmarine was tasked to protect a night crossing and a landing from dawn to 0900 hours with documents showing:

West Flank: 10 Z.Boats, 7 Type 1923/24 T.Boats, 11 Type 1935 T.Boats, 15 U.Boats

East Flank: 23 S.Boats, 8 U.Boats

But what was the Royal Navy's strengths and plans?

Thanks,
Mike

[von_noobie]

interesting read, is it possible to find out the strenght of british ships in the planned invasion sites, along with troop and tank divisions, and any other formations,

[phylo_roadking]

Believe me, it is HORENDOUSLY difficult to find that out, cos Ive tried to. If they'd been involved in combat there would be plenty of ino., but......

[von_noobie]

well its always better to ask than to not but thanks anyway

[HoustonProblem]

All, more Seelöwe data, from a German source.

The German plan was to cross at night, with a landing at dawn. Each Transportflotte could carry an Army Corps:

Transportflotte B = A.K.XIII
Transportflotte C = A.K.VII
Transportflotte D = A.K.XXXVIII
Transportflotte E = A.K.VIII

See http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1145

-Mike

West:

Minebarrage Anton, Bruno, Dora

15 U.Boote

F.d.Z. (Kommodore Bey) - Führerboot Z.20 Karl Galster (KK. v. Mauchenheim) Le Havre (Typ 1936)

5. Z. Flot. (FK. ?) Le Havre (Typ 1934)
Z.4 Richard Beitzen (KK. Schmidt)
Z.14 Friederich Ihn (KK. v. Puffendorff)
Z.15 Erich Steinbrinck (KK. Johanneson)
Z.16 Friederich Eckholdt (KK. Schemmel)

6. Z. Flot. (K.z.S. u. Kdr. Bey) Le Havre (Typ 1934)
Z.5 Paul Jacobi (KK. Zimmer)
Z.6 Theodor Riedel (KK. Böhmig)
Z.7 Hermann Schöemann (KK. Detmers)
Z.8 Bruno Heinemann (KK. Langheld)
Z.10 Hans Lody (KK. Wangenheim)

1. T. Flot. (K. ?) Cherbourg (Typ 1935)
T.1 (KL. ?)
T.2 (KL. ?)
T.4 (KL. ?)
T.9 (KL. ?)
T.10 (KL. ?)

2. T. Flot. (K. ?) Cherbourg (Typ 1935)
T.5 (KL. ?)
T.6 (KL. ?)
T.7 (KL. ?)
T.8 (KL. ?)
T.11 (KL. ?)
T.12 (KL. ?)

5. T. Flot. (KK. ?) Cherbourg (Typ 1923)
Falke (KL. Hessler)
Grief (KL. Lyncker)
Kondor (KL. Wilcke)
Seeadler (KL. Hartenstein)

6. T. Flot. (KK. ?) Cherbourg (Typ 1924)
Iltis (KL. Schnur)
Jaguar (KL. Kohlauf)
Wolf (KL. Peters)


East:

Minebarrage Caesare, Emil

8 U.Boote

FdT (Kdr. v. Bütow) – Rotterdam

1. S. Flot. (KL. Birnbacher) Rotterdam
S.18
S.19
S.20
S.22
S.24
S.25
S.26
S.27
S.28

2. S. Flot. (KL. Petersen) Flushing
S.30
S.31
S.33
S.34
S.35
S.36
S.37
S.56

3. S. Flot. (KL. ?) Zeebrugge
S.10
S.11
S.12
S.13
S.54
S.55
ç

Transportflotte B (K.z.S. v. Fischel) 100 Schleppzüge (B 1000 m. L 16.5 km.)
Schleppverbande 1 (K.z.S. v. Fischel) - aus Dünkirchen auf Weg Rosa dann Weg 1
3. M. Flot. (M.16, M.17, M.18, M.19, M.22)
11. R. Flot. (R.121, R.122, R.123, R.124, R.125, R.126, R.127, R.128)
3. Vp. Flot. (Vp.302, Vp.303, Vp.304, Vp.305, Vp.306, Vp.307, Vp.308, Vp.309)
75 Schleppzüge (3 n)
6 Artillerieträger

Schleppverbande 2 (K.z.S. Hennecke) - aus Östende auf Weg Rosa dann Weg 1
3. R. Flot. (R.33, R.34, R.35, R.36, R.37, R.38, R.39, R.40)
2. Vp. Flot. (Vp.201, Vp.202, Vp.203, Vp.204, Vp.205, Vp.206, Vp.207, Vp.208)
25 Schleppzüge (3 n)
3 Artillerieträger

Geleitzug 1 (K.z.S. Wagner) - aus Östende auf Weg Lila dann Weg 1
16. M. Flot. (M.1601, M.1602, M.1603, M.1604, M.1605, M.1606, M.1607, M.1608)
9 Dampfer
18 Prähme
8 Motorboote

Geleitzug 2 (K.z.S. Schirlitz) - aus Rotterdam auf Weg Lila dann Weg 1
4. M. Flot. (M.502, M.504, M.510, M.511, M.545, M.572, M.584)
48 Dampfer
96 Prähme


Transportflotte C (K.z.S. Kleikamp) 100 Schleppzüge (B 1000 m. L 16.5 km.) - aus Calais auf Weg 2
1. M. Flot. (M.1, M.3, M.4, M.7, M.8, M.14, M.20)
32. M. Flot. (M.3201, M.3202, M.3203, M.3204, M.3205)
4. R. Flot. (R.41, R.42, R.43, R.44, R.45, R.46, R.47, R.48, R.49, R.50, R.51)
7. Vp. Flot. (Vp.702, Vp.703, Vp.705, Vp.706, Vp.707, Vp.708, Vp.709)
100 Schleppzüge (3 n)
9 Artillerieträger

Geleitzug 3 (K.z.S. Wesemann) - aus Antwerpen bis Calais auf Weg Lila dann Weg 2
15. M. Flot. (M.1501, M.1502, M.1503, M.1504, M.1505, M.1506, M.1507, M.1508)
57 Dampfer
114 Prähme


Transportflotte D (K.z.S. Lindenau) - 165 Schleppzüge (B 1500 m. L 20.0 km.) - aus Boulogne auf Weg 3
2. M. Flot. (M.2, M.6, M.9, M.10, M.12, M.13, M.21)
18. M. Flot. (M.1801, M.1803, M.1804, M.1805, M.1806, M.1807, M.1808)
2. R. Flot. (R.25, R.26, R.27, R.28, R.29, R.30, R.31, R.32)
15. Vp. Flot. (Vp.1501, Vp.1505, Vp.1506, Vp.1508, Vp.1509, Vp.1510, Vp.1511, Vp.1512)
16. Vp. Flot. (Vp.1601, Vp.1602, Vp.1603, Vp.1604, Vp.1605, Vp.1606, Vp.1607, Vp.1608)
18. Vp. Flot. (Vp.1801, Vp.1802, Vp.1803, Vp.1804, Vp.1805, Vp.1806, Vp.1807)
165 Schleppzüge (4 n)
9 Artillerieträger


Transportflotte E (K.z.S. Scheuerlein) - aus Le Havre auf Weg 4
1. R. Flot. (R.18, R.19, R.20, R.21, R.22, R.23, R.24, R.52)
4. Vp. Flot. (Vp.401, Vp.402, Vp.403, Vp.404, Vp.405, Vp.406, Vp.407, Vp.408, Vp.409)
13. Vp. Flot. (Vp.1301, Vp.1302, Vp.1304, Vp.1305, Vp.1306, Vp.1307, Vp.1308, Vp.1309)
20. Vp. Flot. (Vp.2001, Vp.2002, Vp.2003, Vp.2004, Vp.2005, Vp.2006, Vp.2007, Vp.2008)
200 Motorboote (20 n)
100 Motorsegler
5 Artillerieträger

Geleitzug 4 (KK. v. Jagow) - aus Le Havre auf Weg 4
12. M. Flot. (M.1201, M.1202, M.1203, M.1204, M.1205, M.1206, M.1207, M.1208)
25 Dampfer
50 Prähme
25 Schlepper mit 3 leeren Prähme

Geleitzug 5 (K.z.S. Brocksein) - aus Le Havre auf Weg Rosa bis Boulogne dann auf Weg 3 nach Raum D oder E
14. M. Flot. (M.1401, M.1402, M.1403, M.1404, M.1405, M.1406, M.1408)
25 Dampfer
50 Prähme

[CaptainSensible]

Except inter-war Germany was desperate. They were sitting right in the maw of the Evil Empire. The Leftists dominated the Reichstag. Nobody was standing up for the country. We did 40 years of duck & cover drills protected by the world's greatest oceans. Germany was only a tank's roll away. They were desperate. They were paranoid. With damn good reason. Soon Moscow's industrial production would rocket past their own. Moscow's self-stated goals were abundantly clear.

And for loyal Germans, there was only one game in town.

But I said the Leftists dominated Weimar -- and Stalin made it that way. Stalin dangled hope before the literally starving and terrified German folk.

He dangled Hitler.

He dangled bait.

Germany went for it.

And Stalin won.

And the Commie Reds have been laughing and laughing and laughing ever since.

I agreed with most of your post untill this. The Weimar republic was not crippled by some leftist-communist conspiracy. EVERY party involved is responsible for the chaos of German government between 1920-33, the right wing elements if anything are more guilty of destablisation and bad government than the left elements. And exactly how could and why should France and Britain, who's economy was suffereing from a previous war Germany initiated (and a depression some irresponsible Americans created) 'stick up' for bloody Germany? endorsing and subsidising bad and irresponsible government?

I'm sick of this cold-war blaming of France and Britian and the Soviet union for the rise of the nazis.