3. Infanterie Division (motorisiert)

Skarn · Post by **Skarn** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:18 am

Hello,

Could someone tell me when exactly was re-created this division destroyed in the Stalingrad pocket in January 1943 ? And when exactly it became a Panzergrenadier Division ?

http://www.lexikonderwehrmacht.de indicates only that it was raised in March 1943 as a Panzergrenadier Division, which seems a little bit weird, because it would be the first Panzergrenadier Division under this status. But it also states that the unit used to raise it, 386. Infanterie Division (motorisiert), was disbanded on March 1st 1943.

So, re-created on March 1st 1943 as 3. Panzergrenadier Division ?

Thanks for your help,
Regards,

Loïc

Jan-Hendrik · Post by **Jan-Hendrik** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:02 am

You are using the wrong sources

http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/3%20 ... %20div.htm

Jan-Hendrik

Skarn · Post by **Skarn** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:09 am

You're right, Jan-Hendrik, my mistake

According to http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de : raised from 386. Infanterie Division (motorisiert) on March 1st 1943, became 3. Panzergrenadier Division on June 23rd 1943.

Damn, the next time, I'll do it properly and I'll check both websites, I promise !

Thank you very much,
Very best regards,

Loïc

Martin Block · Post by **Martin Block** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:05 am

Skarn,

The relevant orders were:

OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. Nr. I/765/43 g.Kdos. v. 7.2.1943
Eingliederung der Restteile der 3. Inf.Div.(mot.) in 386. Inf.Div.(mot.) und Umbenennung in 3. Inf.Div.(mot.) ab 1.3.1943 gefordert.
[Org.Abt. ordered BdE to incorporate remnants of 3. ID(mot) into 386. ID(mot) and rename that division to 3. ID(mot) by 1.3.1943.]

OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. Nr. I/839/43 g.Kdos. v. 9.2.1943
Aufstellung der 3. Inf.Div.(mot.) durch Ob. West bei A.O.K. 1 als Voll-Division mit Verwendungsbereitschaft zum 1.4.1943 gefordert.
[Org.Abt. ordered BdE to raise the 3. ID(mot) in Ob.West/AOK 1 area and have it combat ready by 1.4.1943]

OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE/AHA Ia(I) Nr. 720/43 g.Kdos. v. 11.2.1943
Verlegung der Restteile der 3. Inf.Div.(mot.) aus dem Bereich der H.Gr. Don in den Bereich des Ob. West zum Neuaufbau dieser Division befohlen. Neuaufbau der Division erfolgt durch Umbenennung der 386. Inf.Div.(mot.) am 1.3.1943.
[BdE ordered transfer of remnants of 3. ID(mot) from the East to France for incorporation into new 3. ID(mot). This division will be created by renaming the 386. ID(mot) on 1.3.1943.]

OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. Nr. I/4860/43 g.Kdos. v. 19.5.1943
Die Inf.Div.(mot.) werden auf Befehl des Führers mit sofortiger Wirkung in 'Panzergrenadier-Divisionen' umbenannt.
[Based on a 'Führerbefehl' Org.Abt. orders renaming of all Inf.Div.(mot.) to Pz.Gren.Div., effective immediately.

Martin Block

Skarn · Post by **Skarn** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:52 am

Waw !
Wonderful, Martin ! Exactly what I needed.

The last order, issued on May 19th 1943, is somewhat confusing to me, because I read - excellent sources state that - that this order was given on June 23rd 1943. Do you think it was issued on May 19th and became effective on June 23rd, even if there was this "effective immediatly" ?

Anyway, a huge thank you for your help, very appreciated, as usual.
Very best regards,

Loïc

Martin Block · Post by **Martin Block** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:39 pm

Skarn,

Effective immediately ment effective immediately. The order was sent to all Heeresgruppen by telegraph on 19.5.1944 and they in turn were responsible to pass it down the line immediately. This apparently did not take long since for instance HQ AOK 2 passed this order on to all corps commands and divisions unter its command already on 20.5.1943. So he whole German army down to divisional level was informed about this renaming (Yes, we Germans did and do love paperwork!). So all then Inf.Div.(mot.) should have been informed about their renaming within less than 48 hours. And even if a certain unit hadn't received the order for whatever reasons let's say on the 23rd it did not matter. Officially its new designation as Pz.Gren.Div. had officially been valid since 19.5.1943.

What that date June 23rd you found has to do with all this at the moment is a mistery to me.

Martin Block

Skarn · Post by **Skarn** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:50 pm

Martin,

June 23rd 1943 is a day that is hightlighted frequently to qualify the moment when the Infanterie Divisionen (motorisierte) became Panzergrenadier Divisionen :

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /10PGD.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /18PGD.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /25PGD.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /29PGD.htm

http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/16%2 ... %20div.htm
http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/18%2 ... %20div.htm
http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/25%2 ... %20div.htm
http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/29%2 ... %20div.htm

Last : http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16144

"To underline the fact that the motorized infantry divisions were under new management, all motorized infantry divisions were redesignated on 23.06.1943 as
Panzer-Grenadier-Division"

Just seemed weird to me that and order "effective immediatly" appeared not to be effective immediatly for so many well-informed people... This is why I asked you this.

But it's ok, it was effective immediatly, understood. Infanterie Divisionen (motorisierte) became Panzergrenadier Divisionen on May 19th 1943, like this one : http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /PGDGD.htm .

Thanks again for your precious help,
Regards,

Loïc

Leo Niehorster · Post by **Leo Niehorster** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:18 pm

Martin,
I based my post on Tessin, Vol. 1, page 170:

§19a Umbennenung 1942/42
Am 23.06.1943 wurden die Infanterie-Divisionen (mot) in Panzergrenadier-Divisionen umbennant.

Tessin does not indicate an AHM or an order in this case, as he sometimes does.

I am glad you found the original order. You have an incredibally good library.

Cheers
Leo

Martin Block · Post by **Martin Block** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:55 pm

Thanks for jumping in Leo!

Let me first state that I have the highest respect for the work Mr. Tessin has done. It is outstanding and second to none. But since he was - like the rest of us is - only a human being he was not save from making the odd mistake (I'm awaitig to be struck by a lightnig from above at any moment now

) and IMHO the date he gave for the renaming of the Inf.Div.(mot.) into Pz.Gren.Div. is one.

My information is based on the following primary sources:

- A copy of the order issued by OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. on 19.5.1943
- A copy of the order issued by AOK 2 on 20.5.1943 passing the Org.Abt. order of 19.5.1943 further down the line.
- copies of the authorised OoB of 3., 10., 18., 20., 25., 29., 60., and Inf.Div.(mot.) GD as of February 1943 kept by the Org.Abt. and updated with handwritten annotations about organisational changes until June 1943. All these sheets show the annotation "umbenannt in Pz.Gren.Div. (I/4860/43 g.K. v. 19.5.43)" which is just short for order no. OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. Nr. I/4860/43 g.Kdos. v. 19.5.1943.

At the time being and in this particular case I trust these documents more than Tessin (and 'Lexikon der Wehrmacht' which is probably based on his work).

Martin Block

Vagandubo · Post by **Vagandubo** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:56 am

Thanks to everyone for the great work done here.
Can you please be so kind and explain the shortcuts used here?

OKH = Oberkommando des Heeres
GenStdH = Generalstab des Heeres (i suppose)
Org.Abt. Nr = Organisations Abteilung Nr.
g.Kdos = ?
BdE = ?
AHA = ?

Cheers, Phil

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:47 am

Hi Vagabundo,

If I remember rightly, BdE refers to the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army) command and AHA refers to its subordinate general army office. The rebuilt divisions were reformed by the Ersatzheer and then released to the Feldheer for operations.

Again if I remember rightly, 386th Motorised Infantry Division, that went to reform 3rd Panzer Grenadier Division, was actually an Ersatzheer training formation consisting of a combination of the motorised infantry training units of several wehrkreise. It provided a ready made base for 3rd Panzer Grenadier Division's rapid resurrection.

Cheers,

Sid.

Martin Block · Post by **Martin Block** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:24 am

Chef H Rüst u BdE = Chef Heeresrüstung und Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres

AHA = Allgemeines Heeres-Amt

g.Kdos. = geheime Kommandosache

Martin Block

Vagandubo · Post by **Vagandubo** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:03 am

Sid and Martin,

thanks for your information.
Cheers,
Phil