Oradour

Objective research on factual information regarding German military related warcrimes.
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TH Albright
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Oradour

Post by TH Albright »

Interesting news from Michael William's excellent Oradour-sur-Glane site:

Direct quotes from Mr. William's "Latest News"....

1) I have just returned from a trip to France which included a visit to Oradour where I had a face-to-face meeting with one of the staff there. She told me that documents have been found in Germany from the Das Reich archives that show a clear and unambiguous order to destroy Oradour. The unknown factor still remaining being why Oradour was singled out for destruction. This new data is to be incorporated into a documentary being produced in France, timed for release to coincide with the 60th anniversary of the massacre on 10th June 2004. My informant told me that she has not personally seen these papers, but she has been informed of their content.

One effect of this revelation would be of course to prove Otto Weidinger to be a bare faced liar, as he has repeatedly denied in his various books that any such order was ever given. It will also destroy the reputation of Sylvester Stadler and Heinz Lammerding, both of whom have denied throughout their lives that any such order was given. Stadler in particular has enjoyed something of a 'good guy' image, post war and his reputation will be particularly tarnished by these revelations if shown to be true.

Note: I have not seen these documents, I am just repeating what I have been told in good faith, time and the release of the documentary will settle the matter.

P.S Rob..I know you will be interested in this
Uncle Joe
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Well,...

Post by Uncle Joe »

if giving such an order would destroy Stadler et al´s image, then I can only wonder why e.g. James Wolfe´s reputation isn´t tarnished though he ordered purely terror attacks on civilians during the Seven Years War. But, of course, he wasn´t German.

Jukka
georg
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Post by georg »

If the Staff member knows about "it" how come nobody else does?????

Regards,

Georg
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Dackelstaffel
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Post by Dackelstaffel »

Hi,

I'am not pretending to answer at this question if there was an order to destroy Oradour and wipe out the people, but just for info and just to show how it could have happened. It's just an example and no more.
In april 1944, the train carried the Aufklarung Ableitung of the 12 SS panzer HJ was lighty damaged by a bomb on the track at the town of Ascq near Lille in the north of the France. For one or two hours, the waffen SS did nothing but after ( it's still unclear why they did it) they killed (without order) about 80 people whom where not involved in the attack just civilians. By an intervention from the Feldgendarmerie based in Lille, the killing was stopped.
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Post by pimberg »

I just want to ensure that this particular post/topic (ie: proof of a direct order to destroy Oradour) is still "alive".

In four more days it will be sixty years since this tragic event. Why one has to wait for an anniversary to share such important information begs a number of questions - for example:
1. Are they waiting for the ink to dry on this document?
2. Is it to cater for some money spinning tourist event?
3. The so-called "Das Reich Archive"? How come no one else could find this order?
I apologise if it appears I am making a joke of it. I am certainly not. I just believe it is totally unprofessional and disrespectful to everyone interested in Oradour that an important (alleged) artifact such as this cannot be presented until some type of hyped-up media event.

Anyway - I have patiently been waiting, and the time is coming up. Let's see if it proves anything (eg: "Weidinger as a bare faced liar").

Does anyone "out there" have recent information on this "Order".
If nothing re. this order comes up then the qustion has to be raised where is it?

Regards,
Peter
sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Guys,

What is the real significance of this information, even if true?

Oradour was still destroyed, many French civilians are still dead and the Waffen-SS still did it.

Cheers,

Sid.
pimberg
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Post by pimberg »

Sid,

You're not wrong in what you state. However I thought this Forum was for "research" and as part of further on-going research it would be interesting to know if there was an order from "higher up" to target Oradour.
Furthermore this supposed revelation (ie: the "order") was initially raised/posted as proving some people are "bare faced" liars.

I am purely interested at seeing this "order". And if all of a sudden it does not exist why did someone state it did?

That is at least my "significance".
sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Pimberg,

Fair comment.

Little more seems to hang on the outcome of this than the credibility of one individual, but it is always as well to get the facts right, however limited their significance may be.

Cheers,

Sid.
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

I think that most enlightened people understand that there was a lot more to what happened in and around Oradour-sur-Glâne on June 10th 1944 than meets the eye. Had it been as simple a case as "The Waffen-SS did it", the veterans tried in Bordeaux in 1951 would not have been let off so easily, regardless of any perceived need to mollify the people of Alsace-Lorraine. Whenever the authorities show 'leniency' for reasons of expedience, you can usually bet your last dollar that they are scared of something. And there are many people in France who are scared of the truth when it comes to Oradour, whatever that truth is.

PK
sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Paddy,

That's as may be, but have you any actual evidence or is it just your personal suspicions?

Cheers,

Sid.
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

Sid,

I think my post is quite clear. Of course I don't have any evidence. If I had any evidence to back up what are widely-held suspicions, then so would other people and it would have been made public by now.

Unfortunately, the French archives relating to the Oradour massacre remain closed. Given the release of the former Waffen-SS soldiers tried and found guilty in Bordeaux in 1951 and the refusal of the French authorities to lift the embargo on certain files, it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that it there was more to the affair than met the eye. If it were a simple, straightforward case of the Waffen-SS behaving atrociously, as they did at Ascq, for instance, then the French authorities would not be covering anything up, would they?

Those who travel to the area for research-related reasons are shunned by locals and, in some cases, 'advised' to stop poking about and leave. The 'advice' comes either from the local police, keen to prevent incidents, or from local hardmen, usually from families who were involved with the communist FTPF partisans. Again, why this fear of scrutiny, sixty years afterwards? Why are the French authorities sitting on the files and why are the locals so hostile to enquiries? What are they hiding from us?

PK
sid guttridge
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Paddy,

The main fault of all conspiracy theory is that it uses absence of evidence
as evidence.

There are many possible explanations for the inability of researchers to get the material they want.

There may be no such material.

The locals might just resent having their past misery raked over again and again by revisionists of dubious intention.

There may be a cover up.

Bureaucracy may be opaque and inert.

Etc., etc..

But in the absence of evidence there appears to be no reason to favour one theory over another.

Or is there?

Cheers,

Sid.
Mark C Yerger
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Post by Mark C Yerger »

A "Das Reich" archive ?? News to me and I've studied the division for 20+ years. The French have always been far less than a help with ANYTHING research wise unless it conformed to their views of the events.

Mark C. Yerger
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Vaterland
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Post by Vaterland »

I agree with Mark. If there is a "Das Reich Archive", why hasn't it been brought up before? I would think that it would be a such a huge resource and would have been "in the open" (so-to-say) by now, if it does indeed exist.
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

Sid,

Come off it! Don't even try to infer that I am a revisionist or an apologist! I happen to reside in France and can tell you as a fact that the French authorities have blocked access to certain files pertaining to the Oradour episode and march to Normandy of the Das Reich in June 1944. To refer to this is not to indulge in conspiracy theories and theorising. It is perfectly legitimate to wonder why the authorities wish to deny people access to these files, especially as the same authorities effectively let the people convicted of the atrocity off scot-free! It is too easy to imply that someone is a pro-Nazi apologist when they say or write something unpopular. It's a bit like accusing people who criticise Israeli expansionism of being Jew-haters.

It was suggested that the French government of the day wished to appease the population of Alsace, to avoid alienating the Alsatians as they did in the post-WW1 period when the French Army behaved badly there but given French attitudes to the Nazi occupation and France's suffering under the jackboot, this is really a bit hard to swallow! "Look here, you chaps, you hanged, shot, blew up and burned alive over six-hundred French citizens and wiped a village off the map, so we're going to have to revise the Michelin Guide, but we don't want to upset any anti-French, pro-German people in Alsace who might see you as heroes. So, off you go now and we'll forget all about it!"

Yeah...right! This is the country where the elderly Jochen Peiper was murdered thirty years after WW2 just for having been a member of the Waffen-SS, probably with the tacit complicity of the local authorities. This is the country where they never cease reminding everyone of how much they suffered under Nazism...while they murdered countless Vietnamese, Arabs, Kabil and Black Africans in their disintegrating Empire in the 1940s and 1950s.

There was a de facto civil war between the Gaullists and the Communists after WW2 and a very fragile peace existed in 1951. A desire to appease Communist militants, many of them with FTP pasts, is probably closer to the truth than any desire to appease the population of Alsace. As if the French government has ever been inclined to appease anyone! The only language they understand is force and rebellion and they had more to fear in 1951 from home-grown Moscow-funded Communist hardliners than from a few Alsatians with chips on their shoulders.

PK
Last edited by Paddy Keating on Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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