1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Objective research on factual information regarding German military related warcrimes.
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Sam H.
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1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by Sam H. » Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:56 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6gFQH54k0M
1945. A US Navy submarine in action in the Pacific. The orders, due to the many cases of suicidal attacks with the use of explosives or hand grenades, were "to avoid and prevent with any means" the approacing to the US ships of shipwrecked Japanese sailors. Another (untold) reason for the killing was to avoid that the shipwrecked Japanese may reveal the submarine presence and position, in case they would be rescued by enemy ships.
To explain the "nonchalance" of the U.S. sailors in being filmed while committing what nowadays could be considered a War Crime, all one need to do is watching some of the U.S. WW2 propaganda films and cartoons, portraiting Japanese like sub-human monsters deserving only to be killed (The key phrase of a major War Bonds Campaign was: "Have You Killed a Jap Soldier Today?!", over chilling pictures of piles of dead Japanese). These propaganda films appear unbelievable nowadays... but they're real!
(Pretty controversial...) U.S. Combat Camera Unit 16mm original color film.
Linn Productions Media soundtrack (something went wrong with the uploading and only one of the stereo channels is working... not my fault!) added (Demo Only) in 2008 by ROMANO-ARCHIVES, available on:
Anyone seen this video before?

Thoughts?

I think its highly biased, clearly misrepresents the video, and even the video itself is cut and spliced to elicit an emotional response.

Anyone seen this source before? "Editing by ROMANO-ARCHIVES"

A review of the youtube channel shows many altered and misleading videos.

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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:52 pm

Hi Sam, my friend!!!!

I haven't seen the video, but the fact is that if you read the memoirs of several Captains and crew members in the USN submarine service in WWII, such killings were common. There are many, many documented stories of Japanese sailors and soldiers being machine-gunned in the water after their ships were sunk, throughout the Pacific war.

And, no one has ever accused the USN of being overly diligent in their efforts to rescue Japanese sailors in the water.

Of course, war is cruel and many IJN sailors and officers preferred dying rather than surrender because that was a part of their ethics.

But anyone who has read about WWII in the Pacific knows that atrocities against Japanese sailors were common, as, unlike the Germans, they were regarded by many U.S. servicemen as, racially, less than human.

This is not to forget the many atrocities committed by the Japanese, like the Bataan Death March or the inhuman conditions in Japanese prisoner camps or the building of the railroads in southeast Asia. The list of Japanese atrocities against Americans, Australians and English prisoners of war, as well as the Chinese and other Asians is a long, long list and should never be forgotten. The vast majority of them were committed by the IJA, not the IJN.

What I object to is the sanctimonious and deliberate over-looking of American atrocities, as, if German Submarine Captains practiced the same policies as American submariners in the Pacific, they would have been tried and found guilty of war crimes. In fact, one of the reasons Admiral Doenitz was not charged with the wartime atrocities committed by a very small minority of his submarine captains was because it was conceded by the USN that their practices in the Pacific were the same as those of the German submarine fleet.

Bestens,
~D, the EviL
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....

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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by Hans » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:53 pm

Lest we forget, there was a war on. I have actually wondered how the fate of say Australian POWs of the Japanese killed by the the US Navy when they sank POW transports was officially documented. Any idea?

- Hans
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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by Commissar D, the Evil » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:25 pm

Here's where bad memory comes in: Yes, these incidents were documented, as was a similar incident involving American POW's. I believe I read about them in memoirs of the surviving prisoners, but it was a long time ago. Also, one clearly marked Japanese Hospital ship was sunk, but if you believe it, the Americans accepted responsibility and, again according to memory, apologized to the Japanese government through neutral channels. Anyone interested in this incident should read:
"Ghost of War: The Sinking of the Awa Maru"

Sorry for the lack of specivity.

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David
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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by lwd » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:34 am

I saw one of these films being discussed on another forum. Someone actually looked up the details of the action and apparently the sub took small arms fire from the Japanese survivors first. In another action they were firing on Japanese boats and again took fire from the Japanese.

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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by phylo_roadking » Thu May 20, 2010 3:13 pm

MODERATOR NOTICE

I've taken a number of actions on this thread -

1/ I've moved it to the correct place

2/ I've removed a couple of off-topic posts.

I'll be wtching this thread carefully, because

3/ as usual its a very emotive topic, and

4/ we don't normally discuss ALLIED War Crimes, this being Feldgrau and dedicated to AXIS forces' research with side Sections where this can't help but interface with general WWII History or the Alies.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by Hans » Thu May 20, 2010 4:33 pm

Interesting that we "normally don't discuss allied war crimes". I recently spent 5 weeks cruising with some 1400 people half of whom were American. We attended a number of lectures by senior Australian ex service members - General & Vice Admiral. One of the topics was the sinking of an Australian Hospital ship by the Japanese. This was described as a war crime in no uncertain terms & the General pointed out that the Japanese were the only nation sink such ships. A member of the audience - nationality unknown - pointed out that German hospital ships were sunk in the Baltic. Response - it would have been an honest mistake. I pointed out that American forces sank at least one Japanese hospital ship. Response - Are you sure? The Admiral then backed up my statement. Response - it would have been an honest mistake.

Amazing.

- Hans
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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by PA. Dutchman » Thu May 20, 2010 5:13 pm

Hans wrote:Interesting that we "normally don't discuss allied war crimes". I recently spent 5 weeks cruising with some 1400 people half of whom were American. We attended a number of lectures by senior Australian ex service members - General & Vice Admiral. One of the topics was the sinking of an Australian Hospital ship by the Japanese. This was described as a war crime in no uncertain terms & the General pointed out that the Japanese were the only nation sink such ships. A member of the audience - nationality unknown - pointed out that German hospital ships were sunk in the Baltic. Response - it would have been an honest mistake. I pointed out that American forces sank at least one Japanese hospital ship. Response - Are you sure? The Admiral then backed up my statement. Response - it would have been an honest mistake.

Amazing.

We have a World War Two Round Table Group in our community. World War Two Veterans share their stories. One night last summer we had a German POW who was captured in North Africa. He told us how the German Government through the Red Cross said "IF YOU SEND GERMAN POWS BACK TO THE UNITED STATES, AND DON'T VIOLATE OUR TRUST, HAVE THE SHIPS RUN WITH ALL THEIR LIGHTS ON THIS WAY WE WILL NOT SINK THEM"

The German POW said this was done successfully through out the war, the United States brought German POWs back with their lights on and nothing else was smuggled on these ships. This POWs father was drafted and he was brought here as a POW too. His father was a Veteran of World War One and became a Lutheran Minister. The Lutheran Church in American was able to have them reunited in the same POW camp on Christmas Eve of maybe 1943/44.

My father fought through out the Pacific War, he enlisted in 1937 and was stationed in Hawaii. He was there when Hickman was Attacked on 12/7/1941 along with Pearl Harbor. Several times he mentioned that the Japanese refused to mark POW ships and many a Allied POW was killed by Allied planes not knowing the ship was full of Allied POWs.
- Hans
Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by PA. Dutchman » Thu May 20, 2010 5:26 pm

Commissar D, the Evil wrote:Hi Sam, my friend!!!!

I haven't seen the video, but the fact is that if you read the memoirs of several Captains and crew members in the USN submarine service in WWII, such killings were common. There are many, many documented stories of Japanese sailors and soldiers being machine-gunned in the water after their ships were sunk, throughout the Pacific war.

And, no one has ever accused the USN of being overly diligent in their efforts to rescue Japanese sailors in the water.

Of course, war is cruel and many IJN sailors and officers preferred dying rather than surrender because that was a part of their ethics.

But anyone who has read about WWII in the Pacific knows that atrocities against Japanese sailors were common, as, unlike the Germans, they were regarded by many U.S. servicemen as, racially, less than human.

This is not to forget the many atrocities committed by the Japanese, like the Bataan Death March or the inhuman conditions in Japanese prisoner camps or the building of the railroads in southeast Asia. The list of Japanese atrocities against Americans, Australians and English prisoners of war, as well as the Chinese and other Asians is a long, long list and should never be forgotten. The vast majority of them were committed by the IJA, not the IJN.

What I object to is the sanctimonious and deliberate over-looking of American atrocities, as, if German Submarine Captains practiced the same policies as American submariners in the Pacific, they would have been tried and found guilty of war crimes. In fact, one of the reasons Admiral Doenitz was not charged with the wartime atrocities committed by a very small minority of his submarine captains was because it was conceded by the USN that their practices in the Pacific were the same as those of the German submarine fleet.

Bestens,
~D, the EviL
Commissar D, the Evil,

My father was at Hickam on 12/7/1941 and their 11 Bomb Group Heavy with its Bomber Squadrons was in the Battles of Midway, Esposito Santos, the Solomons, Guadalcanal etc. They were the first Army Air Corp to go into the Pacific after the Attack. Their Unit received the Presidential Unit Citation and it is the same one awarded the Marines, their Commanding Officer was the same Commander for both.

He said very little for a long time after his death I was given all his papers. I have made contact with only family members of the 11 BG H and its four Squadrons. When their B-17s were shot down over the Pacific no one and none of their planes were ever recovered. Few of my fathers friends ever returned with him to Hawaii. Many of those who survived the shooting down of their bombers were machine gunned down by the Japanese fighters or ships, none of their crews ever came back as a POW all were killed.

He trained new replacements but the men he had served with since 1937 were all pretty much dead. He was an Armorer 911. A LT Jack Krey who is 94 called me from Florida. He wanted me to know they ordered my father to stop flying as a Gunner, they ran out of officers and needed him as a Acting Armorer Officer. That probably kept him alive to come back. They were taking men off the planes going to Australia to replace their own.
Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by phylo_roadking » Fri May 21, 2010 3:50 pm

A member of the audience - nationality unknown - pointed out that German hospital ships were sunk in the Baltic. Response - it would have been an honest mistake. I pointed out that American forces sank at least one Japanese hospital ship. Response - Are you sure? The Admiral then backed up my statement. Response - it would have been an honest mistake.
Hans - note the words "in the Baltic" I.E. sunk by the Soviets...

In November 1917 Lenin repudiated Russian membership/signatory status of all "imperialist" and "international" treaties...including the Hague Conventions :shock: The Hague Conventions including the Hague Rules on Land Warfare and the various Hague Conventions on Maritime activities only applied between TWO "High Contracting Powers"/Signatories...

Thus - in 1941 - of the two adversaries on the Eastern front, only ONE...Germany...was a signatory of Hague and thus it legally didn't apply to the war in the East! :shock:

Stalin de facto confirmed this; in both the Winter War AND in July 1941, he atempted to reach a DIRECT agreement with his enemy that they would BOTH abide by agreed parts of Hague - thus admittting that IF this one-off agreement wasn't made...Hague DIDN'T apply by default!

The Finns DID agree to abide by certain sections of the HRLW in their war with the USSR - but as we know, Hitler refused, expecting his "short victorious war"...

ALSO AS WE KNOW - at the IMT in 1945, the victorious Allies came up with the legal kludge that "laws and customs of war", if generally accepted for x-amount of time around the world by so many signaotories - like the Hague Conventions were - then de facto they WOULD have the status of "law" even between non-signatories and in conflicts not NORMALLY covered by them! :D Hence.....the Soviets could bring charges against German War Criminals under "laws" - that simply didn't apply for the duration of the war looking forward from June 20th 1941 :wink:

What does this mean for the hospital ships in the Baltic?

WHEN IT HAPPENED - it wasn't a war crime; no international legislation that would have made it so applied at the time between the Germans and the Soviets.

AFTER THE WAR - the Hague and Geneva Conventions were applied retrospectively to the War in the East by a legal kludge.

See the difficulty??? :wink:

Admittedly the legal kludge at IMT DID have some benefits - it eventually gave rise to the "Law of International Treaties" which has formalised the idea that if international treaties are promulgated and ratified by x-number of signatories, then they will apply to every nation within a finite period of time...which has had a major impact on things like the worldwide acceptance of the Maritime Law Of The Sea, for instance.

That "honest mistake" comment sounds like someone trying to excuse something.....but not even knowing what the REAL - and very wobbly! - legal position was ANYWAY!!! :D :D :D
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by lwd » Mon May 24, 2010 8:45 am

Commissar D, the Evil wrote:... But anyone who has read about WWII in the Pacific knows that atrocities against Japanese sailors were common, as, unlike the Germans, they were regarded by many U.S. servicemen as, racially, less than human....
Really? I've read quite a bit about the war in the Pacific and don't remember reading much about "atrociities against Japanese sailors". Against soldiers yes but sailor no. IJN atrocities vs allied sailors on the otherhand weren't partricalarly rare.
Hans wrote:.... I pointed out that American forces sank at least one Japanese hospital ship. Response - Are you sure? The Admiral then backed up my statement. Response - it would have been an honest mistake...
It was an "honest mistake" at least on the allied side. The Japanese hospital was not where it was suppose to be and was not lighted as it was suppose to be. On the Japanese side it was carrying banned materials and possible soldiers from what I recall. In any case the captain of the sub was court martialed and I believe found guilty though later cleared.

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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by Hans » Mon May 24, 2010 3:51 pm

Always interesting to read about the "winners" being purer than white.

- Hans
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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by PA. Dutchman » Mon May 24, 2010 8:35 pm

Hans wrote:Always interesting to read about the "winners" being purer than white.

- Hans
Dear Hans,

Allies won but they were not without their own issues.

This site docuements the abuses by all the Armies/Navies/Air Forces etc and Governments involved in World War Two.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/index.html

We have been able to rent a DVD here in the states, "The Saint and the Soldier"it is a true story and show the best and worse of both sides.

I have a dear long time friend who fought in World War Two in the Battle of the Bulge, Beligum etc. Maybe 10 years ago he returned to visit some of the places he fought. On one of the Battlefields he ran into some German Troops he had been fighting. In time he was invited to their Units reunion. During the reunion several German veterans gave Bob some items from a wounded American Soldier they tried to make comfortable before he died. These Germans gave the American a decent burial and had hoped someday to give comfort to the Americans family that he did not die alone and was comforted in his death.

My friend was able to locate the soldiers family and pass the information from the two German troopers along to the family.

No there are always good and bad on both sides.
Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by Hans » Mon May 24, 2010 11:33 pm

Precisely!

- Hans
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Re: 1945 US SUBMARINE: No Mercy for Shipwrecked Japanese

Post by lwd » Wed May 26, 2010 12:27 pm

Hans wrote:Always interesting to read about the "winners" being purer than white.
That's your interpretation and a rather incorrect one at that. In the particular case mentioned it was pretty clearly a case of the US capatain not correctly identifying the target. From what I recall reading he used a radar bearing and never actually saw the ship. Furthermore as pointed out she was in violation of the rules although he had no way of knowing that so it wouldn't be an excuse.
Indeed if one does a simple google on "awa maru sinking" one comes up with these as the first 4 pages with the following information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awa_Maru_(1943)
Awa Maru took on several hundred stranded merchant marine officers, military personnel, diplomats and civilians at Singapore... Less dramatic and more credible sources identify the likely cargo as nickel and rubber.
The ship departed Singapore on March 28, but on April 1 was intercepted late at night in the Taiwan Strait by the American submarine USS Queenfish, which mistook her for a destroyer.
http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/c ... a_maru.pdf
The lone survivor was picked up by
the Queenfish. From him it was learned that the Awa
Maru, a ship which the United States had pledged its
word would be unharmed, had been sent to the bottom.
This information was promptly reported by the skipper
of the Queenfish, Commander Loughlin, to his headquarters
in Honolulu, which in turn notified Admiral
Ernest J. King, Commander in Chief, U.S. Fleet, in
Washington, D.C.
(U) Reaction was swift. The Queenfish
was ordered into Guam immediately. Waiting on the
dock was Admiral Lockwood, Commander of all U.S.
submarines in the Pacific. Acting on the express orders
of Admiral King, Lockwood stripped Loughlin of his
command and told him that he would be courtmartialed
at the earliest possible moment.
This document makes it clear by the way she wasn't a hospital ship.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-40748359.html
A pay site with a link to an article about the sinking.
http://www.queenfish.org/noframes/393.html
What occurred that night of 1 April, 1945 has been the subject of dozens of articles in magazines and journals and of entire chapters in several books. QUEENFISH sank a lighted, marked Japanese ship granted U.S. safe conduct to carry supplies for Allied prisoners of war. A tragic combination of circumstances and errors engulfed QUEENFISH and her skipper: missed communications, unclear messages, near-zero visibility, concern for counter-attacking destroyers, perfect accuracy with four radar-aimed torpedoes, etc.. AWA MARU sank in a couple of minutes. When the one survivor picked up by QUEENFISH told his story, Loughlin immediately reported to COMSUBPAC, CINCPACFLT and CNO.

QUEENFISH was ordered into port; CDR. Loughlin was relieved of command, tried by court-martial and convicted of one of the three charges, negligence in obeying orders. After the war, it was confirmed that AWA MARU was loaded with munitions and contraband. Loughlin survived to continue an illustrious career that led to flag rank. QUEENFISH resumed the war.
Searching the sinkings at:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/ma ... sters_1944
I can find no US or British sinkings of hospital ships. You might want to consider a little research before you make snide comments.

Locked