A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Objective research on factual information regarding German military related warcrimes.
panzermahn
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A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by panzermahn » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:20 am

Hi all,

I can't recall where I read this story in this web and I hope any readers who can help to jog my mind. During a reprisal action against civilians (I can't recall where was the location) by the Wehrmacht, a group of civilians including old men, women were about to be shot. A German soldier refused to partake in the firing squad and was seen to removed his helmet and join the group of civilians that were about to be shot. There was a series of photographs taken which show the German soldier walking towards the soon-to-be executed group of civilians.

Could anyone clarify this story?

Thanks for many help
Panzermahn

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Doktor Krollspell
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by Doktor Krollspell » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:27 pm

Hello Panzermahn!

Could this be the photograph that you're asking of?

Image


In that case, this photograph has been discussed before (a somewhat heated discussion...) so follow the link for source etc. etc.

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=15847


Regards,

Krollspell
"Wie es eigentlich gewesen ist"
Leopold von Ranke (1795-1886)

panzermahn
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by panzermahn » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:40 pm

Hi Doktor Krollspell

Thank you very much your knowledgeable reply (as always!). I think the description by forum member Nero most probably the one that I read last time. The photo you poted actually fits very closely to Nero's description. But i remember it was mentioned that there were a series of photographs taken regarding this incident. Do you have the series of the photographs on this just a single photo by itself?

Thanks, Herr Doktor :)

Panzermahn

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Doktor Krollspell
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by Doktor Krollspell » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:13 am

Hello again Panzermahn!

Unfortunately, I have only this one photograph (from the swedish book mentioned in the older thread) but I will keep searching. Surely there must have been many incidents when individual german soldiers must have had severe moral and emotional angst when ordered to perform these kind of "duties". Though it must have been extremely rare that these cases where captured on film/photographs or documented in other ways?


Regards,

Krollspell
"Wie es eigentlich gewesen ist"
Leopold von Ranke (1795-1886)

panzermahn
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by panzermahn » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:37 am

Hi Dr. Krollspell,

Thanks again for your reply. Yes, it would be extremely to find such documentation of German soldiers refusing to obey illegal orders and were executed for it, let alone having photographs to show it. I know a couple of cases where German soldiers and officers refusing to execute civilians, captured commandos, but it is not known that those German soldiers/officers were executed for it.

Panzermahn

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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by Carl Schwamberger » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:07 pm

Back in the early 1970s I saw a film of a renactment of this incident. The scene was very much like the photograph above. The same background and placement of the soldiers and other people in it. I cant recall the title of the film & vaguely recall it was part of some sort of instruction on moral questions.

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Schultz
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by Schultz » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:37 pm

Hello did some looking around and found this it was a real incident there are 2 monuments to joseph schultz.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 493&page=5

There are more photos and eyewitness video.

Schultz
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by joefraser » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:05 pm

There is an incident mentioned in After The battle number 56 "the ambush of SS General Rauter". 263 were shot as a reprisal for this attack in Holland. One site at De Woeste Hoeve where the ambush on Rauter took place contains a memorial to 117 patriots murdered by the German usurper. However, it appears that there were 116 dutch and a German, Obrwachtmeister Helmut Seijffards refused to take part in the shooting and was himself executed and buried alongside the 116 Dutchmen. One thing this does throw up is the question; could a German opt out of shooting civilians with no comebacks. This seems to suggest no. However the timing of the incident ( march 1945) could have a bearing on this.

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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by ghp95134 » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:18 pm

joefraser wrote:There is an incident mentioned in After The battle number 56 "the ambush of SS General Rauter". 263 were shot as a reprisal for this attack in Holland. One site at De Woeste Hoeve where the ambush on Rauter took place contains a memorial to 117 patriots murdered by the German usurper. However, it appears that there were 116 dutch and a German, Obrwachtmeister Helmut Seijffards refused to take part in the shooting and was himself executed and buried alongside the 116 Dutchmen. One thing this does throw up is the question; could a German opt out of shooting civilians with no comebacks. This seems to suggest no. However the timing of the incident ( march 1945) could have a bearing on this.
If I recall correctly, "our" HaEn saw the aftermath of one of these March '45 Rauter reprisals as he was enroute back to Don Bosco kaserne after making a messenger run. He made a disparaging remark about the executions and ended up on charges, then "volunteered" to be assigned to Ustuf. Auke Pattist's "Himmelsfahrtkommando" as a panzerjäger.

HaEn ... did I remember correctly?

--Guy

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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by haen2 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:11 am

Hi Guy,
ALMOST !
I was on a return trip to Airfield "Deelen" where we had been transferred to. And I had been re-assigned as regimental kradmelder, also called "krad-rad-fuss-oder bauch melder", By that time Don Bosco was 'home to a kraftfahrer schule, soon to be overrun by allied forces.
Upon arrival I must have looked "kind of out of it", and the Stubaf who I had to report to, asked me why.
My answer did not sit very well with him, and he almost got a stroke of anger. About an hour later i was given the choice: "Flying courtmartial" at that time mostimes garanteeing the firing squad, or "Volunteering " for the Panzerjagd commando laughingly called 'himmelfahrt or toteswunsch kommando" becaue we were supposed to go into, and behind enemy lines and blow up their panzers, and/or create as much havoc as we could, (and try not to be caught in the act)).
Oh well, lots of water through-under the bridge, and a long time ago.
HN
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Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think !

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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by ghp95134 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:34 pm

Hello HaEn,

Thanks for correcting me about Don Bosco. Speaking of which ....
Image
Image
I found it HERE. I don't read Dutch, but it looks like the school was purchased by VODW Marketing and is their HQ!! Their address is:

Dodeweg 6
3832 RC Leusden, Netherlands

So, enter that address into the Google Map search engine and find your old stomping grounds:
Link HERE

Zoom in on the map and you get a pretty good idea of the new grounds!

Cheers!
--Guy
Last edited by ghp95134 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by ghp95134 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Don Bosco Kaserne through the ages:

1944
Image

1980s (??)
Image

2000:
Image

--Guy

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haen2
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by haen2 » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:27 pm

The top photo was taken at a swearing in cermony. Lft Front, Stubaf Paul Helle; Right front (if I am not mistaken) Ustuf Nauman, who would hold the sword. Behind him I seem to regonize O.GR.F. Hans Rauter. The others are too vague to recognize, but usually on an ocassion as this, Gr.F. Demelhuber was also present.
The next phot shows the delivery and comkmon man entrance. The Cook, and Food supply U.Führers were stationed here. There also used to be large drill field where yours truly did a lot of "hinlegen ' - äuf marsch marsch" (hit the deck and run.
Most if not all of the other building were not there, instead there were several wooden military barracks.
Oh those "good"(sic) rotten old days :D :( :x :wink:
HN
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Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think !

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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by ghp95134 » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:11 pm

haen2 wrote:... Right front (if I am not mistaken) Ustuf Nauman, who would hold the sword.
Hello HaEn,

The right front might be Ustuf Nauman, but the officer who held the sword is none other than (I firmly believe) Hstuf Ziegler. There is a photo in Marc Rikmenspoel's book, Soldiers of the Waffen SS: Many Nations, One Motto showing this part of the ceremony with Don Bosco in the background --the Hstuf holding the sword is wearing the Finnish Frontkaempfer badge .... I think Hstuf Ziegler was one of the few Germans who had that award. I've compared the photos of that Hstuf with those of Hstuf Ziegler when he was an SA Ustuf. I am mostly sure it is the same man.

Image

Anyway, I am writing from Ft. Huachuca, Arizona (official travel) and do not have the book with me. However, when I return to my office during the week of 10/14 I will scan the image and submit it for your confirmation.

Kind regards,
--Guy Power

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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet

Post by ghp95134 » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:13 pm

Moderator,

I have inadvertently hijacked this thread. Is it possible to move my posts to a new thread .... perhaps to HaEn's??

My sincere apologies to the thread's author!

--Guy

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